World Class Motivation

[AlexL]

Mr Karge-

I guess where a lot of us differ with you, is that we dont view the threat of pushups and\or running as "abuse".

Are there some staff members that have taken it too far? Absolutely. But i dont think you can rope all physical consequences into this. There's a line as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Edited August 20, 2010 by AlexL

[Granny Smith]

(I will not do a reply so others do not have to scroll down through your long post)

Wayne,

You asked a question which I thought was a fair question. However, in your original post, you defined physical abuse as doing pushups and running laps. Within about 5 replies (the first few were somewhat innocuous). There were those who took up your position about how teachers who use this kind of "physical abuse" are essentially unfit to teach.

It was at this point that your goal of asking a simple question was hijacked. Keep in mind that it is a fairly regular occurrence for people to register on DCP and within 2 or 3 posts they are flaming and baiting others into hyperbolic arguments.

Overall the majority of people on DCP are thoughtful people, but you will find that there is little tolerance for flame baiters. That's just how forums are (and it's not just this one).

My responses have been to address your definition of physical abuse and that I disagree with you. Having raised five children, taught classes. blah blah blah, I have a completely different definition of "physical abuse." Perhaps adding examples of what you consider to be abusive sidetracked the main purpose of your original post. I am learning (oh so slowly) that you have to craft your post very carefully and at times you have to work equally hard to keep your thread on topic.

I appreciate your commitment to drum corps. What else can I say, but thank you.

I say it on a regular basis that DCP is a community of people who love the activity. It's a group that fights each other, laughs with each other and generally hangs out talking about our favorite pastime. Do not let your very brief experience here jade your thinking. Fight back. Prove your point and contend for what you believe in. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to influence us.

You may look at your post as a very innocent question, but when you've only posted a couple times you are going to be heavily scrutinized (for better or for worse). You need to ease into it a bit and let people get to know you. It really is a great place to talk, and it is a place that can use people like yourself who have a wealth of experience.

So...I stand by my positions that I do not think that running laps or push ups is physical abuse, and that at appropriate times correcting a person with consequences is a valuable teaching tool. Have there been those who have abused their leadership and crossed lines? Sure. But, the notion that it's the instructors fault if kids aren't getting it right is simply an overstatement and untrue.

To me, abuse would be a kid not carrying his weight in the corps and in the middle of the night others have a sock party (I think that's what it's called) on him, where they tie things in the end of their sock and hit him. I have heard of this in the old days and that to me is worthy of calling the police.

Now...to answer your question. IF you define physical abuse as running laps or pushups, then I would guess that many, if not all corps are guilty of this.

[supersop]

So, by your example, mental abuse is ok.

You did come on here asking a question but also pointed a finger.

Drum corps, by your description was very different when you taught compared to my era. My era is almost the same as what it is now .. only difference being the level of difficulty being asked of the performers and maybe less difficulty from a musical standpoint.

Personally, I would rather do push-ups and remind myself that I can't make that mistake again .. rather than be mocked as someone "less than smart" by an instructor.

Indeed drum corps has changed!

I applaud your efforts and contributions to DCI, its performers and your corps, The Cavaliers.

That said, there is a generation gap that is pretty obvious here ........ by mid July .. the kids today don't get fried from all day rehearsals. They are (by then) well seasoned vets that have no breaking point. This is how they achieve at such a high level night after night with such consistency. It might have taken 100's of push-ups or miles of laps to get them in that physical and mental state ..... but I'm fairly certain few staff had to use mental warfare that demeaned it's membership in the process.

In my methods, I'm the bad guy because I'm pushing the tempo of rehearsal until my students catch up to speed ... and eventually start pushing me. I have never once made a student feel stupid nor mocked them. I fully understand that different people learn via different methods .. but that's not what this thread is about. It was about you bearing witness to "corporal punishment" (your words). What you witnessed was the members pushing themselves to greatness by today's standards. Self inflicted reminders to perform at higher standards is not corporal punishment. In the beginning, when they are weak and soft .... it's more affective. By the time July and August roll around ... it is just habit and has zero affect on their bodies in a negative or positive manner ...... it's just keeping themselves hardcore and for that, I APPLAUD THEM!!!

[wjk1946]

Here is the body of a private message I recieved this morning. Once again, I have not inlcuded the name of the sender, because he has not given me permission to enter him into the rukus.

(REMOVED THE DETAILS, SORRY)

If even half of this is true, then I am really concerned for the young men and women in drum corps today. Also, if any of this is true, then the staff and management of Crown should be doing some real soul searching.

Sincerely, well may not so sincerely, (okay lighten up, this is an attempt at humor)

Wayne Karge

A Cavalier

Edited August 20, 2010 by wjk1946

[bluecoats88]

I for one know that the Bluecoats travel with a Sports Medicine Trainer because they are concerned about the health and fitness of their members.

[mophilda]

Here is the body of a private message I recieved this morning. Once again, I have not inlcuded the name of the sender, because he has not given me permission to enter him into the rukus.

I am a professional teacher, and seem to think along the same lines that you do. Sarcasm is a far better teacher than physical abuse. I can teach a concept four or five times instead of running a lap or doing push ups after errors. Sadly, sometimes the competitive nature makes people go too far.

I think sarcasm is a far worse teacher than a lap or push ups. Not every kid can read sarcasm and they are much more likely to take it personally and it can be a demoralizing thing for many more students than you think. If you use sarcasm often they never know when you are serious. It renders your criticism AND praise ineffective.

If the lap or push ups are given without insult and profanity then it is pretty straight forward. Kid doesn't take it as an attack on his character. Sarcasm is often taken as such by kids and adults alike. We all know someone who "can't take a joke."

[WOOHOO]

Hold on a minute...

We're talking about, hopefully, the small minority of kids that need the physical punishment, right?

If your whole group is this lazy then you've got bigger problems than cleaning a show.

Oh, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I was talking about a small minority here. I do see sometimes this lazy minority being more socially influential in a group than we consider sometimes.

[The Other Mike]

I am sorry I asked my simple question.

What is most frustrating to me the I simply asked for some information. Not only did I not receive this information, but from the start I was attacked by a bunch of people who are hiding behind the web. These same people accused me of hiding. I never hid, I am not hiding, nor will I hide, but this experience has shown me how uncooperative people can be.

I came here asking for information. What I got was a fight.

I

I started by asking for some information. Virtually nobody has answered my question, but I have surely been attacked for simply asking the question.

Since virtually none of you have the decency to answer my original question, I guess I learned what I was afraid I would learn. Very few want to help. Most simply want to rant. I am sorry I bothered any of you. Obviously I am an old, fool who has nothing to offer to drum corps. I wanted ot learn enough to help and all I received from you is a lambasting for my concern.

Okay, I give up. I hope I never hear about abuse, or future injuries, but I have a feeling this is not the last time I see or hear about a serious injury in drum corps.

.

BS. You came in here with big sticks poking the4 bears in the cage. Had you simply voiced your concerns and invited people into a discussion, the outcome "might" have been very different.

All this talk about the "proper" way to teach etc, yet you forget all those fine points when you posted in this thread, why ?

Did you expect something different ?

I'd be happy to have a serious discussion about any of this. I "CAN" stop being a smart ###, can you stop being a drama queen ?

Simple and direct, please make your points. ( you just might find out that I agree with most of what you have to say )

As I said in my 1st responce, it was your delivery, and it still is.

[Plan9]

Some interesting thoughts coming out of this thread, not sure if it was your intention, but none the less...good stuff. Also, Granny, as always, keeps us centered here on DCP, and she had quite a nice post and some good advice.

I speak from a very specific background in training elite U.S. Army Rangers. The training in itself is life-threatening and because I was an officer in charge it was all the more important that I understood the physical and psychological nature of our training objectives and safety aspects (in fact, I did my first Masters thesis on the subject).

Military units (particularly combat units) share a group dynamic with Drum Corps...in short...there is no success unless it it done as a group. Every component part must function (in most cases) flawlessly for there to be a safe and successful operation. Each team member (MM) has a role that is timed and to a specific standard, the efforts fit as planned and culminate in a desired outcome. To get there...the instructors must first find out if the members are capable of nearly involuntary action. That is.. responding as trained identically each time so that a "team confidence" is formed allowing the advancement to the next level of effort.

There is little room for error in Ranger Ops and high speed drum corps shows. As a result, to someone looking in from the outside, the training may seem harsh and even over the top. NOTE: As senior trainer I had to occasionally counsel instructors who were reaching a point of abuse, but most importantly...I needed to know where that "break point" was...and not let it occur. This is very difficult and only real seasoned instructors consistently know it.

Similar to the Crown MM on finals night, I trained students who would NEVER reveal injuries for fear of having to start this #### near impossible training over. I was forced to make that decision many times and when you tell a 230lb SEAL team member that he's a training "recycle" and watch him come apart at the seams, you understand why they hide it.

So..pushups, etc are a form of correction to accomplish several things, (as mentioned) conditioning, personal acknowledgment of failure to meet a standard, but just as important (and why it's done in plain sight) group acknowledgment of failure to meet a standard....a sort of "watermark". Depending how it's managed, the later can be destructive or extremely constructive.

A couple brief examples:

1) As mentioned in an earlier post, if you watch a BD practice you'll notice at the end of a run, the person in the tower will have group comments, while this is going on (without any names being mentioned) certain MM will drop and do pushups or if they think the comment is made in their direction..they will raise they're hand and then do pushups. Sometimes pushups are done by individuals even before the tower comments. The first time I saw this I didn't know what the hell was going on. This is a level of group/self-evaluation that any organization would kill for.

2) Finally, it terms of the "bonding" component of pushups, many years ago when I was a Ranger Student I was also student company commander (sort of a DM). During city week I got the company to the chow hall late (by no real fault of my own) but the Ranger Instructors surrounded me and began to pull a "Sgt Carter from Gomer Pyle" routine on me and yelled at me to do pushups. As I was doing them, I looked around and the entire company was doing them with me. Pretty cool moment. It's about Esprit De Corps and it's very healthy.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Plan9

[WOOHOO]

Some interesting thoughts coming out of this thread, not sure if it was your intention, but none the less...good stuff. Also, Granny, as always, keeps us centered here on DCP, and she had quite a nice post and some good advice.

I speak from a very specific background in training elite U.S. Army Rangers. The training in itself is life-threatening and because I was an officer in charge it was all the more important that I understood the physical and psychological nature of our training objectives and safety aspects (in fact, I did my first Masters thesis on the subject).

Military units (particularly combat units) share a group dynamic with Drum Corps...in short...there is no success unless it it done as a group. Every component part must function (in most cases) flawlessly for there to be a safe and successful operation. Each team member (MM) has a role that is timed and to a specific standard, the efforts fit as planned and culminate in a desired outcome. To get there...the instructors must first find out if the members are capable of nearly involuntary action. That is.. responding as trained identically each time so that a "team confidence" is formed allowing the advancement to the next level of effort.

The is little room for error in Ranger Ops and high speed drum corps shows. As a result, to someone looking in from the outside, the training may seem harsh and even over the top. NOTE: As senior trainer I had to occasionally counsel instructors who were reaching a point of abuse, but most importantly...I needed to know where that "break point" was...and not let it occur. This is very difficult and only real seasons instructors consistently know it.

Similar to the Crown MM on finals night, I trained students who would NEVER reveal injuries for fear of having to start this #### near impossible training over. I was forced to make that decision many times and when you tell a 230lb SEAL team member that he's a training "recycle" and watch him come apart at the seams, you understand why they hide it.

So..pushup, etc are a form of correction to accomplish several things, (as mentioned) conditioning, personal acknowledgment of failure to meet a standard, but just as important (and why it's done in plain sight) group acknowledgment of failure to meet a standard....a sort of "watermark". Depending how it's managed, the later can be destructive or extremely constructive.

A couple brief examples:

1) As mentioned in an earlier post, if you watch a BD practice you'll notice at the end of a run, the person in the tower will have group comments, while this is going on (without any names being mentioned) certain MM will drop and do pushups or if they think the comment is made in their direction..they will raise they're hand and then do pushups. Sometimes pushups are done by individuals even before the tower comments. The first time I saw this I didn't know what the hell was going on. This is a level of group/self-evaluation that any organization would kill for.

2) Finally, it terms of the "bonding" component of pushups, many years ago when I was a Ranger Student I was also student company commander (sort of a DM). During city week a got the company to the chow hall late (by no real fault of my own) but the Ranger Instructors surrounded me and began to pull a "Sgt Carter from Gomer Pile" routine on me and yelled at me to do pushups. As I was doing them, I looked around and the entire company was doing them with me. Pretty cool moment. It's about Esprit De Corps and it's very healthy.

Very excellent post. I have a cousin in the Special Forces, and hear similar things.

I guess all these things come down to intent. Nothing should ever be done out of humiliation; All type of work should be done to make both the individual and the group stronger. I think most drum corps for the most part are trying to make the group stronger, but we would be fooling ourselves if the other side didn't happen in our drum corps experience.