If DCI were to allow woodwinds, would you continue to support the acti

[BozzlyB]

Who is looking to eliminate anything? It's extremely selfish to demand that drum corps stop it's progress just because you don't want it to change.

There is simply no argument against the FACT that if woodwinds are added, brass only drum corps will cease to exist. The equivalent argument would be all woodwinds should be removed from marching band because I prefer MB without them. Sounds pretty freaking ######## doesn't it.

[garfield]

You have NO way of knowing that the changes have not been correct, beyond your opinion. IMO they have been the correct changes. We still have pretty much the same corps that existed in 2000, despite the terrible economy of the past few years, which some seem to dismiss. There are still large crowds attending shows...both legacy and new fans...band members attend by the busloads. Again...all this in a terrible economy.

You misread my post, Mike. Read it again. I said that proving the negative of "what would have been" is impossible.

But the fact remains that the decisions to make these changes came with promises of widening the activity's reach in fans and MMs. Measuring by corps that survive is a straw man because it's true that attendance is down, and so is revenue. Look closely at the 990 and you'll see a couple-hundred-thousand dollar bonus as a result of their investment assets improving with the market in late '09.

And furthermore, the economy was booming from late '01 to the third quarter of '07 when the bond market crashed.

Having a bunch of corps (43, down from how many in 1997?) doesn't pay the bills. Fans pay the bills. The attitude suggested by this poll is that many fans will leave if woodwinds are allowed on the field.

And if you suggest that those fans will be replaced with new ones, that's just hope for which you don't have any evidence. Legacy fans, including those who hate the thought of woodwinds, are a fact. Which group is worth more effort?

Edited September 17, 2010 by garfield

[HockeyDad]

It will be a long wait, because that's an invalid cause/effect, as was shown earlier. Nowhere was it EVER said that the mere existence of an electronic instrument was going to bring in droves due to their mere presence.

If you repeat this enough times, maybe someone else will believe it. But not me. Electronics and amps were part and parcel of the "change" and "evolution" and "progress" that was needed to get more kids involved in the activity, generate more interest...........and the logical conclusion (to everyone but you I guess)...bring in more people and their money. Hence improving the health of the activity. But now the sentinel of change is saying that the change for which he was the loudest drum banger didn't work. So Why listen to his next proposal??

[HockeyDad]

Who is looking to eliminate anything? It's extremely selfish to demand that drum corps stop it's progress just because you don't want it to change.

And there you have it. Change = Progress.

[MikeD]

You misread my post, Mike. Read it again. I said that proving the negative of "what would have been" is impossible.

But the fact remains that the decisions to make these changes came with promises of widening the activity's reach in fans and MMs. Measuring by corps that survive is a straw man because it's true that attendance is down, and so is revenue. Look closely at the 990 and you'll see a couple-hundred-thousand dollar bonus as a result of their investment assets improving with the market in late '09.

Well, you said this: "there's no doubt that the solutions put in place up until now have not been the correct ones,"..which is what I replied to.

And furthermore, the economy was booming from lat '01 to the third quarter of '07 when the bond market crashed.

I think DCI attendance, from what I recall being released, was improving through most of that time.

Having a bunch of corps (43, down from how many in 1997?) doesn't pay the bills. Fans pay the bills. The attitude suggested by this poll is that many fans will leave if woodwinds are allowed on the field.

And if you suggest that those fans will be replaced with new ones, that's just hope for which you don't have any evidence. Legacy fans, including those who hate the thought of woodwinds, are a fact. Which group is worth more effort?

As always, DCP polls are hardly indicative of the overall audience.

Legacy fans continue to flock to shows with all of the changes, so where is the proof that they will stop just because WW are added? It's perfectly valid to hold that opinion, but realize that it IS just an opinion.

[MikeD]

If you repeat this enough times, maybe someone else will believe it. But not me. Electronics and amps were part and parcel of the "change" and "evolution" and "progress" that was needed to get more kids involved in the activity, generate more interest...........and the logical conclusion (to everyone but you I guess)...bring in more people and their money. Hence improving the health of the activity. But now the sentinel of change is saying that the change for which he was the loudest drum banger didn't work. So Why listen to his next proposal??

We'll just have to disagree then. The proposal talked about the shows that could be written to attract young people. Electronics are just one tool to accomplish this, they are not an end in and of themselves.

[garfield]

Well, you said this: "there's no doubt that the solutions put in place up until now have not been the correct ones,"..which is what I replied to.

I think DCI attendance, from what I recall being released, was improving through most of that time.

As always, DCP polls are hardly indicative of the overall audience.

Legacy fans continue to flock to shows with all of the changes, so where is the proof that they will stop just because WW are added? It's perfectly valid to hold that opinion, but realize that it IS just an opinion.

"Solutions", et al, Mike. I specifically stayed away from identifying specific supposed solutions of the past in order to focus on the main issue, which is the future and efficacy of following a management team whose "solution set" has not expanded the activity as was anticipated when they were adopted.

My understanding, from a pretty reliable source, is that from '95 to '01 attendance at finals averaged 21,000. 2010's finals attendance is rumored to be "...down a thousand or so". Suffice it to say that the entirety of this teams solution package over the last decade or so did not produce the expansion of the activity as was anticipated.

The question still is: "Is it different this time?"

[Jeff Ream]

You have NO way to know that, beyond having an opinion. That's it. You can hold any opinion you want, but don't try and make it some all-encompassing statement about what others will or won't do.

Personally I don't see WW happening any time soon, as there is no real support for them with the instructors and the directors. But that is just my personal opinion.

I'm willing to bet you too. and I'm very sure I'd win. Mike, fan discontent with the product has been growing. add woodwinds? hell, you see kids on here now that speak out against adding them.

[Jeff Ream]

It will be a long wait, because that's an invalid cause/effect, as was shown earlier. Nowhere was it EVER said that the mere existence of an electronic instrument was going to bring in droves due to their mere presence.

Mike you should be a politician. you can sping anything if you try hard enough. Only problem is, he says it with each sell job for the latest and greatest idea.

and we're still waiting for them to show up.

I mean, unlike you, I was in Indy. and not once did I hear anyone say "####, I'm so glad they added those synths, guitars and stuff. I mean, drum corps just sucked before them!"

I did however hear a lot of people say how they were a distraction and were used poorly.

[Jeff Ream]

Um...legacy fans attend shows...with all of the recent changes...and in the terrible economic times of the past few years.

yes some still do. key word some.