Which corps will make the top 3 for the first time....

[Room_101]

Speaking of Phantom, and the importance of the Visual and Guard, it was primarily a VISUAL move that catapulted this Corps to the Championship in 2008.

Would you mind elaborating? I actually thought their visual was atrocious in 2008. In fact, the problems that "caused their downfall" in 2009 were, in my opinion, evident all throughout Spartacus!

I'm not saying you're wrong! I'm just curious what your specific thoughts are.

[corpsband]

Speaking of Phantom, and the importance of the Visual and Guard, it was primarily a VISUAL move that catapulted this Corps to the Championship in 2008.

Likewise, it was the VISUAL slide in 2009 ( Guard and Visual design ) that had this Corps get buried in 9th from 1st place the previous year.

What do we learn from this ? Well, if you are going to have a caption slide, it had better not be in the Guard or the Visual design. Otherwise, no mattter how decent the Brass and Percussion line might be in member talent and execution, you're going to get buried on the DCI scoring sheets.

Given the number of captions that are impacted by the term "Visual Design" this is not really a profound insight.

OTOH the guard caption is an interesting theory. Do guard ordinals correlate precisely to overall placement? And if so, does that imply that guard is strongly influencing placement or that overall placement is influencing the guard caption?

[MisterA]

Unless we know how strong ( or subpar ) the Guard is with Corps, and how strong ( or subpar ) the Visual Prigram will be, we really won't know much in terms of who moves up or down. DCI is primarily a visual medium now. The judging captions are skewed way more to the Visual than the Brass and/ or Percussion. For example, a solitary Guard member carries more weight in the scores than does ( for example ) a single Trumpet player, or single Snare Drummer. There are typically double the number of Brass marchers than Guard Marchers. If ( for example ) Boston has a killer Guard and Visual show lined up for this year, a soso Brass and Percussion section they'll do good this year. If they have a killer brass, percussion line, but a soso Guard and Visual show, they'll get buried. This of course can be applied to all the Corps too. The Blue Devils have this figured out brilliantly and to a T. They havn't remained unbeaten for 2 years primarily because of their brass line or percussion line. It's been done primarily on the back of their killer Guard, and creative Visual programming and execution.

The only problem with this theory, is the fact that Cavaliers have had an even better guard, and better creative visual programming and execution, and still haven't been beating Blue Devils in the last couple of years.

I think it is going to be extremely tough for a new corps to break into the top 3. When you look at the top 4 corps of all time, Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, and SCV, it is tough to not only beat 1 of them, but to have to beat at least 2 of them to make top 3. And then when you add Carolina Crown, and Bluecoats, who have also been extremely good the last few years, and Phantom, who can also sometimes be top 3 material, it is extremely difficult for someone to beat at least 5 of these corps to make top 3 status. I think the only corps in the near future with this potential would probably be Boston Crusaders, Blue Stars(although they were top 3 in the 70's) and outside chance for Glassmen, as they have placed top 5 several times over the years.

[Big Bad Bari]

The only problem with this theory, is the fact that (I THINK THE) Cavaliers have had an even better guard, and better creative visual programming and execution, and still haven't been beating Blue Devils in the last couple of years.

I think it is going to be extremely tough for a new corps to break into the top 3. When you look at the top 4 corps of all time, Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, and SCV, it is tough to not only beat 1 of them, but to have to beat at least 2 of them to make top 3. And then when you add Carolina Crown, and Bluecoats, who have also been extremely good the last few years, and Phantom, who can also sometimes be top 3 material, it is extremely difficult for someone to beat at least 5 of these corps to make top 3 status. I think the only corps in the near future with this potential would probably be Boston Crusaders, Blue Stars(although they were top 3 in the 70's) and outside chance for Glassmen, as they have placed top 5 several times over the years.

FIXED FOR YOU!!!!

[jpaul]

Speaking of Phantom, and the importance of the Visual and Guard, it was primarily a VISUAL move that catapulted this Corps to the Championship in 2008.

Likewise, it was the VISUAL slide in 2009 ( Guard and Visual design ) that had this Corps get buried in 9th from 1st place the previous year.

What do we learn from this ? Well, if you are going to have a caption slide, it had better not be in the Guard or the Visual design. Otherwise, no mattter how decent the Brass and Percussion line might be in member talent and execution, you're going to get buried on the DCI scoring sheets.

2(Vis GE) + 3(Vis Perf) + 4(Vis Ens) + 4(Guard) = 1? Really?

I think it probably had more to do with the fact that they won every music caption, except for a 2nd in brass.

[FHdork]

The sad part about this topic is that it means some folks will relegate some of this summer's GREAT shows to the 'stumble' category. There are 6-8 corps (maybe more...) that people believe should be in the top 3 (or 'could' be there) - and so 3 or 4 corps will earn brickbats for NOT placing higher...instead of earning cheers for fine shows. Of course, perhaps some of the shows WON'T be that entertaining...we just don't know. Which is my point. I find I've enjoyed drum corps a lot more since I stopped caring who wins or who places where.

I loved SCV last year - despite the things I found objectionable. I enjoyed Madison, despite the low tessitura choices in brass and cheesy staging moves. I found Crown high quality despite their unsaid (till Bruckner8) subtitle of 'a celebration of Bb'. I found Cadets thrilling and entertaining from beginning to end, despite the potentially irritating presence of Jeffrey. I found Academy and BK to be SO good to listen to...some wonderful brass writing, and obviously fine teaching.

I hope we all seek to find the good things happening...and not all be Bruckner8s...defining success only in terms of placement. We're fans...not faculty. Our job does not depend on winning. That's the headache the staff people accept...we get to enjoy this! Drum Corps survives more easily when we go home with good memories, being more willing to drag our friends and colleagues to the next show.

I like a good 'who's next' discussion as much as the next person...but I hope people will keep their perspective.

[BozzlyB]

2(Vis GE) + 3(Vis Perf) + 4(Vis Ens) + 4(Guard) = 1? Really?

I think it probably had more to do with the fact that they won every music caption, except for a 2nd in brass.

AND the fact that their performance level (not talking execution) was leagues beyond anyone in 08. No one came close to selling their show like they sold Spartacus. I think it is incorrect to say visual is what wins shows. GE wins shows, of which visual is only one aspect of.

[Bruckner8]

The sad part about this topic is that it means some folks will relegate some of this summer's GREAT shows to the 'stumble' category. There are 6-8 corps (maybe more...) that people believe should be in the top 3 (or 'could' be there) - and so 3 or 4 corps will earn brickbats for NOT placing higher...instead of earning cheers for fine shows. Of course, perhaps some of the shows WON'T be that entertaining...we just don't know. Which is my point. I find I've enjoyed drum corps a lot more since I stopped caring who wins or who places where.

I loved SCV last year - despite the things I found objectionable. I enjoyed Madison, despite the low tessitura choices in brass and cheesy staging moves. I found Crown high quality despite their unsaid (till Bruckner8) subtitle of 'a celebration of Bb'. I found Cadets thrilling and entertaining from beginning to end, despite the potentially irritating presence of Jeffrey. I found Academy and BK to be SO good to listen to...some wonderful brass writing, and obviously fine teaching.

I hope we all seek to find the good things happening...and not all be Bruckner8s...defining success only in terms of placement. We're fans...not faculty. Our job does not depend on winning. That's the headache the staff people accept...we get to enjoy this! Drum Corps survives more easily when we go home with good memories, being more willing to drag our friends and colleagues to the next show.

I like a good 'who's next' discussion as much as the next person...but I hope people will keep their perspective.

What's the title of the thread?

[BRASSO]

Would you mind elaborating? I actually thought their visual was atrocious in 2008. In fact, the problems that "caused their downfall" in 2009 were, in my opinion, evident all throughout Spartacus!

I'm not saying you're wrong! I'm just curious what your specific thoughts are.

Sure, no problem. Phantom was behind BD for much of the year in 2008. They got a spark for themselves and for the fans by deciding at Finals Week in keeping with the show's theme " Spartucus ", to have the Guard member go up onto the podium and symbolically "kill" the DM in retribution for the death of the slave Spartacus. This was not a change in brass solos, or a musical change. It was all a VISUAL change, with a GUARD marcher, that essentially gave the Corps that extra impetus and precious tenths of points to put them over the top and win the Championship.

The following year, Phantom had a decent brass and percussion line once again. However their Guard was very sub par for Phantom, and their Visual design was flawed. If it was the reverse, ie great Guard, great Visual, but subpar brass and percusssion, Phantom would have not finished first, but they would never have been buried in 9th place as they were. Phantom went from scoring over 98 to the following year to not reaching 90 at Finals. As mentioned, the scoring sheets are now skewed more to a Guard member than any Brass or Percussionist. And the Visual design trumps the musical design on the sheets as well.

[BRASSO]

Sure, no problem. Phantom was behind BD for much of the year in 2008. They got a spark for themselves and for the fans by deciding at Finals Week in keeping with the show's theme " Spartucus ", to have the Guard member go up onto the podium and symbolically "kill" the DM in retribution for the death of the slave Spartacus. This was not a change in brass solos, or a musical change. It was all a VISUAL change, with a GUARD marcher, that essentially gave the Corps that extra impetus and precious tenths of points to put them over the top and win the Championship.

The following year, Phantom had a decent brass and percussion line once again. However their Guard was very sub par for Phantom, and their Visual design was flawed. If it was the reverse, ie great Guard, great Visual, but subpar brass and percusssion, Phantom would have not finished first, but they would never have been buried in 9th place as they were. Phantom went from scoring over 98 to the following year to not reaching 90 at Finals. In both cases ( in so far as the judges were concerned ) both the ascendency and descendency in one yesrs time was the product of the Guard and the Visual, not the Music playing. As mentioned, the scoring sheets are now skewed more to a Guard member than any Brass or Percussionist. And the Visual design trumps the musical design on the sheets as well.