Onyx

[TubaJon]

Okay back to being productive. Here is a little template that might keep us all on track an keep a healthy discussion. Ill start things off: 1. Do you like Onyx's show this passed season? Yes. 2. What do you dislike about their show, or areas you think needed improvement, and why? Some of the voice-overs seemed to be lossed due to to the music and other noises going on. I also believe that perhaps the show was going too deep? Or just deep enough! I'm always left puzzled, so I do not know if that is good or bad. Also, I understood the tarp, I just would have done it differently. 3. What did you like about their show, and why? I could tell there was always a high level of difficulty going on somewhere at any given point. I loved the blue bird in my heart poem they used! Take the time to read the full poem to understand what that blue bird is. One cool part was when they were all getting crushed to the front by the clear tarp! They could have done more with that! Well there you are. Three easy questions. Give support to both sides of the argument, and we can all remain civil! Thanks everyone.

[combia1]

I think the tarp was a mirror image. And you know how if you stare at a red dot on a white piece of paper, then look away at a blank wall, you see a different color dot on that wall. Pretty sure the colors of their tarps were perceptual opposites like that. Messing with our rods and cones.

A lot of people say that Onyx was "random" and "chaotic." I disagree. If it were, people would have been getting killed out there on the floor. They had 40 people and and it was VERY well staged and coordinated. You could watch that show 40 times, each time following a different person, and it would be like watching a different show, but all of them variations on a theme. I think part of the reason it placed so well is that judges had a chance to view it multiple times and appreciate the depth and complexity that went in to coordinating and staging that show.

When I first saw Onyx on the Fan Network, I was skeptical. Then I saw it at Indy and began to like it. Then I saw it in Dayton down low and let me tell you, those performers were incredible. So after seeing live twice, once from upstairs and once from downstairs, I really liked it come semis and finals.

I loved Onyx's show because it was so different than what anyone else in the activity was doing. Would I like it if EVERYONE starts doing that? No. We already have enough of that in SA with groups figuring out the "soft and pretty" formula that we see so often.

Now, when I have to describe to my co-workers what WGI is, I probably won't show them a videotape of Onyx. For that, I would probably show them Zydeco world ar O'Fallon High School. Onyx is a show that a newcomer to the activity probably would not understand. But that is OK.

Onyx reminds me a lot of Star of Indiana 1993. At the time, a lot of people, maybe even the majority of people, disliked or downright hated that show. I was one of them. But over time, it has become one of my favorites. Was it different? Absolutely. But it was great marching, excellent playing, very sophisticated, and staged and coordinated very well.

[RiseUP79]

My contribution to this productive discussion...

As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish.

There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter.

My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit.

Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps.

I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view:

1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part.

2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it.

3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show.

To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic.

I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc.

I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience.

Scott Markham

Edited April 21, 2011 by RiseUP79

[rochguardguy]

My contribution to this productive discussion...

As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish.

There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter.

My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit.

Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps.

I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view:

1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part.

2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it.

3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show.

To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic.

I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc.

I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience.

Scott Markham

I mean really...it is flags in a gym. There are more important things in the world to be SO concerned about. Join the judging task force if this bothers you so much, write them, call your congressman. But really..let it go. It is over, they won the silver medal.

[RiseUP79]

I mean really...it is flags in a gym. There are more important things in the world to be SO concerned about. Join the judging task force if this bothers you so much, write them, call your congressman. But really..let it go. It is over, they won the silver medal.

ROFL...and there went the productive discussion.

[TubaJon]

I mean really...it is flags in a gym. There are more important things in the world to be SO concerned about. Join the judging task force if this bothers you so much, write them, call your congressman. But really..let it go. It is over, they won the silver medal.

he was just adding to the discussion? And quite productively. Anyway, may we resume....again

[rochguardguy]

he was just adding to the discussion? And quite productively. Anyway, may we resume....again

I was being a tad sarcastic, but in reality this topic has mostly been personal attacks and not a productive conversation. People really need to get over it and move on.

If an intelligent conversation on the show design is wanted, may I suggest a new topic and leave the negative comments and personal attacks out of it.

[RiseUP79]

I was being a tad sarcastic, but in reality this topic has mostly been personal attacks and not a productive conversation. People really need to get over it and move on.

If an intelligent conversation on the show design is wanted, may I suggest a new topic and leave the negative comments and personal attacks out of it.

An intelligent conversation was started...negative comments and personal attacks were not part of it...and you still whine and complain.

The topic is Onyx...that is what is being discussed. In a productive manner even. What is the need for a new topic?

Might I suggest you stop looking here if you have such issues with (and problems contributing to) an intelligent conversation about 'flags in a gym'...which is what this entire forum is here to discuss.

Scott Markham

[dolphin_drop]

wow, thats it? I was kind of expecting more than 3 technical concerns for as much noise as you've made. huh.

My contribution to this productive discussion...

As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish.

There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter.

My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit.

Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps.

I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view:

1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part.

2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it.

3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show.

To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic.

I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc.

I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience.

Scott Markham

[RiseUP79]

wow, thats it? I was kind of expecting more than 3 technical concerns for as much noise as you've made. huh.

If you would take some time to actually educate yourself and READ what people are saying, you would see that I said these issues occur throughout the entire show.

"Noise"...now educated comments are "noise". I suspect you're one of those people that is always the victim when you go into critique and hear "noise" from the judges. If you even teach colorguard, that is.

I have yet to see YOU make an educated comment...all you do is attack people for having points of view and opinions. Do me a favor...say something worthwhile for all of us to read? I'll wait...