Brigscontrachik05 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Scott, I love this post. I put in bold the parts where I agree with the most. I was sitting really close at Finals and could see all of the issues you bring in your 3 points. Does it change anything to talk about it now? Of course not, but the thing is with "art", we can be just as passionate about criticizing a piece as the designer was when creating it. Onyx's show just isn't my cup of tea. I understand the show (well... only after reading about it and about Charles Bukowski's poems) but I hope it isn't where CG is heading, and this is really just my opinion here, a personal preference. If I had to say something positive, I loved how the performers gave all they had. If they didn't commit a 100%, that show would have looked silly. just my 2 cents :) My contribution to this productive discussion... As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish. There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter. My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit. Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps. I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view: 1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part. 2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it. 3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show. To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic. I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc. I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience. Scott Markham Edited April 22, 2011 by Brigscontrachik05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigscontrachik05 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Thank you for proving my point. Everyone see what happens when you try to have a productive conversation here? It's downright laughable. Right? Same with the DCA forum. You always have to repeat when it's a personal opinion, repeat parts of your previous posts because people just don't really read them or read things that weren't there, sarcasm has to be used really lightly, can't possibly make a grammar mistake because if they can't flame you on your logic, they will on your grammar! Discussion forums are exhausting. lol But have you ever been to hockey or baseball forums, I'm only going on what my husband says here, but it's pretty nasty. DCP is puppies and rainbows in comparison. anyhow, back on topic... Edited April 22, 2011 by Brigscontrachik05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedova Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) [citation needed] ...but seriously, could you please back up this claim? I have never heard of a case where a guard was "docked" points due to a lack of conceptual confusion. Let's take West Broward HS for example. For the past two years, they have performed pretty abstract, metaphorical programs. Does anyone know what they're about? ...Anyone? I had to have them both spelled out by insiders. But hey, they've got two medals back to back. The judges must be seeing something they like. Whenever you hear a judge say "I don't understand," they're not referring to concept. They're referring to the effect trying to be expressed. Onyx is obviously depicting aggression, frustration, a lack of cohesion... and this effect is consistent throughout the program and throughout their phrases. It works, and is rewarded. Yes.. back in 2008 a good friend put out a show which had a theme of love (falling in love, out of love, etc..) in Ind Open, with the idea of constant motion, like Onyx did and got nailed for it! NAILED! Their drill was very similar to what Onyx did the last two years, yet judges complained that they don't understand why they are doing this kind of drill, etc.. They didnt understand b/c it wasnt a cheesy show about love, it was more abstract, and less stagnant, b/c love is always changing, thus the constant moving.. etc.. One of those kind of shows! Needless to say you cant always try new things unless you have names behind you and are in world. Maybe that is why we keep seeing the same kinds of shows year after year in SA and SO Edited April 22, 2011 by thedova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Yes.. back in 2008 a good friend put out a show which had a theme of love (falling in love, out of love, etc..) in Ind Open, with the idea of constant motion, like Onyx did and got nailed for it! NAILED! Their drill was very similar to what Onyx did the last two years, yet judges complained that they don't understand why they are doing this kind of drill, etc.. They didnt understand b/c it wasnt a cheesy show about love, it was more abstract, and less stagnant, b/c love is always changing, thus the constant moving.. etc.. One of those kind of shows! Needless to say you cant always try new things unless you have names behind you and are in world. Maybe that is why we keep seeing the same kinds of shows year after year in SA and SO funny...........NOT.......others were told the same this year how random running isnt clear...all individual work fopr a length of time does not create effect etc etc...double standards at work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubaJon Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I care... ...valid issues in judging have been brought up and need to be addressed! Whether or not Scott has an issue with Mr. Lentz, doesn't concern me, but several guards get docked points b/c judges "don't understand" guards shows. Its odd that no one understands Onyx's show yet no one questions it because they won last year??????? There are many instructors who I know who think the same. All this discussion is good for sport/art whatever you want to classsify it as. Well pleanty of people are questioning it, and I think maybe the judges did too. But they had to reward the level of difficulty, although Scott clearly, and not rudely, pointed out that there was flaws on the individuals level. I dont know what im talking about, because i am a tuba player, but to me it looked like there was a LOT of demand, especially in the drill. If i had to march drill like that, lord knows how much more weight I would have lost in the summer! So i think we can maybe pinpoint the judging flaw that a lot of people feel need to be addressed to the reward for diffculty maybe being too high?? Obviously difficulty should be rewarded, but how much is too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigscontrachik05 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Well pleanty of people are questioning it, and I think maybe the judges did too. But they had to reward the level of difficulty, although Scott clearly, and not rudely, pointed out that there was flaws on the individuals level. I dont know what im talking about, because i am a tuba player, but to me it looked like there was a LOT of demand, especially in the drill. If i had to march drill like that, lord knows how much more weight I would have lost in the summer! So i think we can maybe pinpoint the judging flaw that a lot of people feel need to be addressed to the reward for diffculty maybe being too high?? Obviously difficulty should be rewarded, but how much is too much? Even if you are a tuba player (which I was too), both activities are judged somewhat the same. If you look at repcaps, you have "vocabulary" and "excellence" for movement, equipment and ensemble which Onyx receive 3rd, 4th and even 5th place scores. pretty much showing the weaknesses Scott is talking about, and the GE scores show "repertoire" and "performance" had 1st and 2nd place scores, which includes difficulty/demand and how well they perform it. So they were rewarded for demand. It's something true for DC as well: GE wins shows. Get the GE scores down, and a group can get away with a lot of weaknesses in specific categories. Edited April 22, 2011 by Brigscontrachik05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedova Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Even if you are a tuba player (which I was too), both activities are judged somewhat the same. If you look at repcaps, you have "vocabulary" and "excellence" for movement, equipment and ensemble which Onyx receive 3rd, 4th and even 5th place scores. pretty much showing the weaknesses Scott is talking about, and the GE scores show "repertoire" and "performance" had 1st and 2nd place scores, which includes difficulty, demand and how well they perform it. So they were rewarded for demand. It's something true for DC as well: GE wins shows. Get the GE scores down, and a group can get away with a lot of weaknesses in specific categories. yeah, if we were talking about difficulty then Corona would have won, and Ars Nova would have been top 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubaJon Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Even if you are a tuba player (which I was too), both activities are judged somewhat the same. If you look at repcaps, you have "vocabulary" and "excellence" for movement, equipment and ensemble which Onyx receive 3rd, 4th and even 5th place scores. pretty much showing the weaknesses Scott is talking about, and the GE scores show "repertoire" and "performance" had 1st and 2nd place scores, which includes difficulty/demand and how well they perform it. So they were rewarded for demand. It's something true for DC as well: GE wins shows. Get the GE scores down, and a group can get away with a lot of weaknesses in specific categories. I understand that. But as thedova points out, why wasnt corona way up there then too? Edited April 22, 2011 by TubaJon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigscontrachik05 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hey I am not in the judges head, and I haven't looked at the recaps that closely... Plus this is where my lack in experience comes in, I can't really give a personal opinion on difficulty. Of course that's my interpretation only, and I could be wrong on what the score translates to. I am no expert. I understand that. But as thedova points out, why wasnt corona way up there then too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseUP79 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I understand that. But as thedova points out, why wasnt corona way up there then too? According to the finals recap, in equipment for example, Corona was: 1 Vocab 4th Excellence 4th Overall 4th 2 Vocab 1st Excellence 4th Overall 2nd (There is a double panel in finals, so there are 2 judges on each caption). http://wgi.org/administrator_new/event_docs/World_Finals.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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