GUARDLING Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 We go through this every year, but it's always worth mentioning: there is no coorelation between scores at one show and scores at another show. Not just because the judges are different, but because the quality and number of Corps competing are oftentimes different between the two shows. Thus it is not inconceivable ( nor inconsistent ) that ( say ) Academy might score higher than another World Class Corps ( say ) Glassmen on the same night at different shows, but lose to them when they match up head to head. This happened last season, Happens every season. For years. Scores are a reflection of the SPREADS more than anything else at a given competition. If we enter more corps, and quality Corps, the score a Corps got on the same night where the number and quality of Corps are perhaps not as wide, the scoring naturally reflects that. That said, sit back and enjoy the fun. No year goes by without fans mentioning with glee ( or frustration ) that so and so Corps scored higher ( or lower as the case may be )on the same night as another Corps at some other Coimpetition ( or the night before ). If they don't understand the meaninglessness of this, or how the judging system is designed to work, well it's not your fault or my fault. Just chuckle, and know what you know, thats all. your are right as far as show to show means nothing until corps are together..( Show Dynamics ) When I say consistency I mean in the judging or criteria period..scores can go up or down for many many reasons in a night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 your are right as far as show to show means nothing until corps are together..( Show Dynamics ) When I say consistency I mean in the judging or criteria period..scores can go up or down for many many reasons in a night True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Remember, achievement is only HALF of each caption, with the other half being design. Achievement is derived from both the What and the How sub-captions. Don't confuse achievement with excellence or performance. Edited June 21, 2011 by oldtimedrummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Not necessarily. I gave an example -- albeit a bit unlikely -- as to how very slight changes in ratings can produce large changes in rankings. You cannot deny it. Does it correlate well with what happened last weekend? Not particularly, but people need to understand just how these things CAN play out. The 3 captions cited (Percussion, Visual Performance, Ensemble Music) all tightened up Sunday as compared to Saturday. I'm not sure I see why it's so preposterous that Bluecoats dropped 13% in Percussion from one night to the next at the beginning of the season, or SCV dropping 3.5% on the field, or CC dropping 11% in Ensemble Music. It's the beginning of the season, we should expect high noise in the data because (a) the corps aren't yet consistent and (b) the judges aren't yet consistent and © the judging panels weren't the same. I'm more inclined to believe this might be a truer indication of reality than we've seen in the past, for the exact reasons stated above. Human nature dictates that judges would be pre-disposed to expect more out of (say) CC's music on Sunday when they know their scores from Saturday. What happened this weekend was a step towards the testing protocol known as "blind testing" -- of course, DCI can never be truly blind, because the judges obviously know the corps they are judging, but (presumably) a lack of knowledge by Sunday's panel about Saturday's results provides a peek into the higher variability we might see if human nature is suppressed. I find it fascinating. The example you gave doesn't correlate at all with what happened this weekend. The corps are NOT all within tenths of each other. There are clear competitive neighborhoods. The three captions cited deal with extreme swings in rankings and inconsistent comparative analysis. You find it fascinating, I find it troubling. Fine. To me it points to inconsistency in judges training relative to the application of the Criteria. Edited June 21, 2011 by oldtimedrummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The example you gave doesn't correlate at all with happened this weekend. The corps are NOT all within tenths of each other. There are clear competitive neighborhoods. The three captions cited deal with extreme swings in rankings and inconsistent comparative analysis. You find it fascinating, I find it troubling. Fine. To me it points to inconsistency in judges training relative to the application of the Criteria. or it could mean that a particular section in a corps just did a better show one night compared to the next, which is very expected this early and with such close competition at these two shows any misstep could drop a corps 4-5 slots in a caption. Take the Bluecoats drumline for example since this is close to my heart and something I feel capable of talking to. Although I'm surprised at the 2 point drop (1 point in each subcaption) for their drumline score from Sat-sun. the things I saw in the theater broadcast makes me believe that this drop may have been justified (even though I did not see or hear the Saturday performance). At the theater I noticed some serious fuzz and attack issues in the snare line and also when the one snare tripped on a flag and went down I'm sure it had an affect on whatever they were playing at the time it happened and possibly on that individual snare drummer for the rest of the show (ie, he may just have been a little off the rest of the performance which is understandable after taking a drop like that) What will be telling is how their drum line recovers tonight. If say the drumline had been as on sunday as they had been on saturday and with the averaging the corps could have possibly scored about 1 point higher. this would have put them in 4th just under a point ahead of Crown and about 1 point behind BD. So I am very curious to see if they can retain the levels of the other captions while the drumline recovers what they had on saturday, and if so they are right in the thick of the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjazz Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The example you gave doesn't correlate at all with what happened this weekend. The corps are NOT all within tenths of each other. Oy vey. You just like to argue, don't you? My example was merely a way to illustrate the difference between ratings and rankings. I already said it was not particularly analogous to what happened this weekend. There are clear competitive neighborhoods. Actually, I think it's pretty obvious that there AREN'T clear competitive neighborhoods among these top 8 corps. This seems to be the point that you cannot (or don't want to) grasp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 or it could mean that a particular section in a corps just did a better show one night compared to the next, which is very expected this early and with such close competition at these two shows any misstep could drop a corps 4-5 slots in a caption. Take the Bluecoats drumline for example since this is close to my heart and something I feel capable of talking to. Although I'm surprised at the 2 point drop (1 point in each subcaption) for their drumline score from Sat-sun. the things I saw in the theater broadcast makes me believe that this drop may have been justified (even though I did not see or hear the Saturday performance). At the theater I noticed some serious fuzz and attack issues in the snare line and also when the one snare tripped on a flag and went down I'm sure it had an affect on whatever they were playing at the time it happened and possibly on that individual snare drummer for the rest of the show (ie, he may just have been a little off the rest of the performance which is understandable after taking a drop like that) What will be telling is how their drum line recovers tonight. If say the drumline had been as on sunday as they had been on saturday and with the averaging the corps could have possibly scored about 1 point higher. this would have put them in 4th just under a point ahead of Crown and about 1 point behind BD. So I am very curious to see if they can retain the levels of the other captions while the drumline recovers what they had on saturday, and if so they are right in the thick of the race. It's not the two point drop that's the big issue. (that's another discussion about varying impression ranges) It's the fact that they went from being RANKED first in percussion on Saturday, to be ranked seventh on Sunday. Same thing with SCV's visual performance ranking. Second to Seventh in visual performance? Really? Did the Vanguard collectively forget how to march overnight? Look, it's certainly within reason to see the rankings jump around a little bit, first to seventh is stretch IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cache_Money Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 With all due respect, please criticize something I actually said. I never mentioned the placements. The NUMBERS are all over the place, both in individual captions and in totals. Sheer statistics make the numbers.....troublesome. Troublesome? Sheesh. Even if the performances were IDENTICAL each night, we are still talking about judging an artistic endeavor. Based on "sheer statistics," it would less likely for the judges each night to deliver the same scores and placements. This shows that the judges are actually calling it as they see it (as opposed to "slotting"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It's not the two point drop that's the big issue. (that's another discussion about varying impression ranges) It's the fact that they went from being RANKED first in percussion on Saturday, to be ranked seventh on Sunday. Same thing with SCV's visual performance ranking. Second to Seventh in visual performance? Really? Did the Vanguard collectively forget how to march overnight? Look, it's certainly within reason to see the rankings jump around a little bit, first to seventh is stretch IMO. how is the two point drop not the issue? the reason they went from 1st to 7th in drums is because they dropped 2 points. and the reason for those two points could be attributed to what I said in my earlier post. And yes your example that SCV didn't forget how to march overnight is valid, but think about SCV maybe not having as good a run marching wise from night to night, and other corps who they beat on saturday in that caption had a better marching performance on sunday then they did saturday. when you are dealing with 8 corps that are so evenly matched this early when the consistency in performance hasn't been acheived yet I would totally expect drastic ranking flucuations from show to show where they are all head to head. The only reason we haven't seen this as much in years past is that even when a corps has a drastic fluctuation from show to show the competition they are seeing may not be in the same competitive level and thus they still hold onto the same ranking in the caption even though their score drops or rises dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 how is the two point drop not the issue? the reason they went from 1st to 7th in drums is because they dropped 2 points. and the reason for those two points could be attributed to what I said in my earlier post. The two point drop is not the issue if the ranking remains close. Judges have different impression ranges, which is a whole other topic. It's the fact that they went from being ranked first to being ranked seventh. I agree with you that one expects to see to some fluctuations in rating and ranking, especially this early in the season. I'm not expecting complete consistency here folks. All I'm saying is that to go from 1st to 7th, 2nd to 7th, 1st to 6th, etc, is pretty extreme, and it suggests there may be some inconsistency in the understanding and application of the criteria among some judges relative to scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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