GUARDLING Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The two point drop is not the issue if the ranking remains close. Judges have different impression ranges, which is a whole other topic. It's the fact that they went from being ranked first to being ranked seventh. I agree with you that one expects to see to some fluctuations in rating and ranking, especially this early in the season. I'm not expecting complete consistency here folks. All I'm saying is that to go from 1st to 7th, 2nd to 7th, 1st to 6th, etc, is pretty extreme, and it suggests there may be some inconsistency in the understanding and application of the criteria among some judges relative to scoring. you are totally right in your assumptions, the difference is these people didnt know what others did. You watch how CONSISTANT they get with each other now. You can bet there were texts flying and calls made. Unfortunately some will be swayed by the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Actually, I think it's pretty obvious that there AREN'T clear competitive neighborhoods among these top 8 corps. Really? An overall spread of ten points (eight points Sunday) between first and eighth is a pretty clear indicator of different competitive neighborhoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The two point drop is not the issue if the ranking remains close. Judges have different impression ranges, which is a whole other topic. It's the fact that they went from being ranked first to being ranked seventh. I agree with you that one expects to see to some fluctuations in rating and ranking, especially this early in the season. I'm not expecting complete consistency here folks. All I'm saying is that to go from 1st to 7th, 2nd to 7th, 1st to 6th, etc, is pretty extreme, and it suggests there may be some inconsistency in the understanding and application of the criteria among some judges relative to scoring. or it may suggest that at this point in time there are 7 corps whose drumlines are fairly evenly matched and any misstep in performance by one of them could cost them 5-6 places in the rankings. Here's the percussion scores from both shows Saginaw Round Rock Coats 7.9+7.7=15.6 SCV 7.3+7.4=14.7 (no Change) BD 8.0+7.5=15.5 BD 7.4+7.0=14.4 Cavies 8.1+7.3=15.4 Crown 7.0+6.9=13.9 Crown 7.7+7.4=15.1 Cavies 7.1+6.7=13.8 SCV 7.5+7.2=14.7 PR 7.0+6.7=13.7 Cadets 7.3+7.0=14.3 Cadets 6.8+6.8=13.6 PR 7.2+6.8=14.0 Coats 6.9+6.6=13.5 So as you can see there is 1.6 seperating 1-7 on Saturday and 1.2 Seperating them on sunday. All the scores went down except for SCV and Coats had the biggest drop. With the 7 corps being this tight in this caption I would fully expect to see fluxuations like this every night during the early season simply due to inconsistency in performance in June from show to show. I would bet if these 7 corps were to compete head to head for 7 days straight you would probably see most of these lines in almost all of the 7 slots during that time since they all seem to be very close together in quality right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 or it may suggest that at this point in time there are 7 corps whose drumlines are fairly evenly matched and any misstep in performance by one of them could cost them 5-6 places in the rankings. Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If these are the scores from the 1st two TOC shows, how will the ROC (Rest of Corps) scores fair at their 1st competions? lower than Blue Stars? What if Madison (for example) deserves a score higher than a 67 at their first show? Will they not be given it because Blue Stars scored lower at the TOC shows? or will they be judged show-by-show; and scores are all over the place? Curious to see this season play out. Saginaw Results 1. Crown 74.650 2. Cavies 74.300 3. BD 74.050 4. Cadets 71.050 5. PR 69.950 6. Coats 68.900 7. SCV 68.450 8. Stars 64.750 Round Rock Results 1. Cavies 74.350 2. Cadets 72.600 3. BD 72.550 4. Crown 70.600 5. Coats 70.150 6. PR 69.100 7. SCV 67.500 8. Stars 66.200 It's irrelevant. Scores at different shows aren't comparable. Madison could come out and score an 80 and it means nothing in comparison to Blue Stars or any other corps score from a different show. Madison (or whoever) is simply being compared and contrasted to the other corps they're in competition with that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjazz Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Really? An overall spread of ten points (eight points Sunday) between first and eighth is a pretty clear indicator of different competitive neighborhoods. Why? The fact that 2 different panels had all kinds of variation from one night to the next leads me to believe that right now, we have a group of 8 corps who by and large are functioning FAIRLY close to each other. You are putting too much emphasis on very early results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Why? The fact that 2 different panels had all kinds of variation from one night to the next leads me to believe that right now, we have a group of 8 corps who by and large are functioning FAIRLY close to each other. You are putting too much emphasis on very early results. I disagree. A ten point spread, even at this point in season, clearly delineates competitive neighborhoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) It's irrelevant. Scores at different shows aren't comparable. Does the Criteria change from venue to venue or from week to week? A judge should be able to change venues, and still discern achievement (within reason) based on the criteria. Can you give me an example in the past 20 years where a lower tier corps 9-14 (like Madison now) scored an 80 right out of the gate? I'll grill Crow for a week if Madison scores an 80 tonight. Not gonna happen.(no offense to the Scouts) Edited June 21, 2011 by oldtimedrummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Does the Criteria change from venue to venue or from week to week? A judge should be able to change venues, and still discern achievement (within reason) based on the criteria. Can you give me an example in the past 20 years where a lower tier corps 9-14 (like Madison now) scored an 80 right out of the gate? I'll grill Crow for a week if Madison scores an 80 tonight. Not gonna happen.(no offense to the Scouts) most likely, a few of these other corps are going to post numbers multiple points higher than the Blue Stars, but that doesn't mean these other corps would be higher in a head to head show. that said, I do agree that a 70 at one show should equal a 70 at another show. If the judges were consistent in that way, it would be excellent. Edited June 21, 2011 by soccerguy315 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Does the Criteria change from venue to venue or from week to week? A judge should be able to change venues, and still discern achievement (within reason) based on the criteria. Can you give me an example in the past 20 years where a lower tier corps 9-14 (like Madison now) scored an 80 right out of the gate? I'll grill Crow for a week if Madison scores an 80 tonight. Not gonna happen.(no offense to the Scouts) why would you ever think MAdison is good enough to get an 80...unless its just AN example...but anyway I see your point but show dynamics do change night to night and the players change night to night, and this can and will change outcomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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