Like 'em or not...

[skywhopper]

I agree that the show is great this year.

George Hopkins is probably the most important person in the history of DCI. I don't think the activity would be where it is had he not turned the Cadets into a major force in the early 80s. What he managed for the Cadets is nothing short of amazing, and the influence of those mid-80s shows totally transformed DCI.

So, George Hopkins, I salute you! Thank you for building this activity into something I love dearly.

That said, for the past 10 years he's been at the forefront of proposing and campaigning for changes that a lot of fans don't like. Yes, the DCI board went along with the changes, but most of these rules were proposed and promoted primarily by George Hopkins, and now it feels like every year or two some rule change that would have been unthinkable just a couple of years ago is now a reality. Amps, voice, electronics, woodwinds? What unthinkable thing will crop up after woodwinds? Without his efforts, these changes, if they had even happened, would have happened a lot more slowly, and I think people would not have such a strong reaction. It's one thing to revolutionize show design, but trying to change the rules in order to make the shows you want is something different. And when it feels like one person pushing to change every rule that makes the activity what it is, that's going to engender some strong opinions.

[Shamu89]

I can understand that point of view, but it seems like this particular story has just been done a lot lately. I just don't feel like the Cadets are bringing anything new to the concept this year. The split corps thing is interesting, but again, I've seen other groups do the exact same thing. I feel like at this level, if you're going to do a classic concept like this, you need to really do something new with it. Otherwise its just another show (albeit really well executed).

Don't get me wrong. Its not that I don't enjoy the show at all. I just usually expect more from designers at that level.

I agree somewhat that the good vs evil thing has been done already, but so has almost everything else. I wouldn't call this year's Cadets show terribly innovative from the theme and split unis, but I think it does deliver the goods on GE, and some of the techniques and drill are designed extremely well. And I don't think the show would work nearly as well without the split uniforms, IMHO.

And just curious since I'm relatively new to such introspection on the activity, but which of the shows this year would be considered as bringing something really new to a concept?

Edited July 15, 2011 by Shamu89

[ShortAndFast]

For those with opinions about George Hopkins, what has he done lately? I'll let you decide.

The animosity towards Hop is mostly for the changes to the activity that he's championed. IMO he set out to be controversial, and he succeeded. But everyone should always keep in mind that while Hop is the lightning rod for criticism, these changes wouldn't have happened unless other directors agreed with them (whether or not they're willing to defend them openly as George has done).

The Cadets show design problems in the '00s can't entirely be placed in his hands IMO. But I am also very happy to see them back with a more successfully designed show this year. I don't know that I'd call it "Classic Cadets", but it is definitely a good, entertaining, well-conceived, well-performed show.

[snowrider]

I agree that the show is great this year.

George Hopkins is probably the most important person in the history of DCI. I don't think the activity would be where it is had he not turned the Cadets into a major force in the early 80s. What he managed for the Cadets is nothing short of amazing, and the influence of those mid-80s shows totally transformed DCI.

So, George Hopkins, I salute you! Thank you for building this activity into something I love dearly.

That said, for the past 10 years he's been at the forefront of proposing and campaigning for changes that a lot of fans don't like. Yes, the DCI board went along with the changes, but most of these rules were proposed and promoted primarily by George Hopkins, and now it feels like every year or two some rule change that would have been unthinkable just a couple of years ago is now a reality. Amps, voice, electronics, woodwinds? What unthinkable thing will crop up after woodwinds? Without his efforts, these changes, if they had even happened, would have happened a lot more slowly, and I think people would not have such a strong reaction. It's one thing to revolutionize show design, but trying to change the rules in order to make the shows you want is something different. And when it feels like one person pushing to change every rule that makes the activity what it is, that's going to engender some strong opinions.

Well said! (much better than my previous attempts)

[amusicman]

I have always been amazed at the hatred for George Hopkins. All of the changes he has pushed for have been done in the marching band world for over 20 years. So it's not as if he is pushing for changes and for things that have never been done before in another medium, and used quite successfully. If it was not for George Hopkins the dci world and show design would have become quite static awhile ago, thus giving people a whole other avenue to complain about.

[behold888]

I have always been amazed at the hatred for George Hopkins. All of the changes he has pushed for have been done in the marching band world for over 20 years. So it's not as if he is pushing for changes and for things that have never been done before in another medium, and used quite successfully. If it was not for George Hopkins the dci world and show design would have become quite static awhile ago, thus giving people a whole other avenue to complain about.

That's actually a good point, because the high school band program I came from didn't exactly use some of the innovations that the BOA bands use (electronics being the biggest). So, since my exposure from drum corps, I am now able to use that tool in my psyche when designing and writing shows now. If that were not in drum corps when I marched, I would have had a more difficult time adjusting to it.

[skywhopper]

I have always been amazed at the hatred for George Hopkins.

Being sad, upset, or disappointed by changes he wants to make and has been successful in making is not "hatred". Some people may "hate" George, but most of us have plenty of respect for him.

All of the changes he has pushed for have been done in the marching band world for over 20 years. So it's not as if he is pushing for changes and for things that have never been done before in another medium, and used quite successfully.

In my opinion, the history of use of A&E in marching band world should have been a major negative factor in considering its approval.

If it was not for George Hopkins the dci world and show design would have become quite static awhile ago, thus giving people a whole other avenue to complain about.

That doesn't mean everything he pushes for is a good idea.

[amusicman]

Being sad, upset, or disappointed by changes he wants to make and has been successful in making is not "hatred". Some people may "hate" George, but most of us have plenty of respect for him.

The main reason I used the word "hatred" is because of 2006. When the decisions and design of one man cause a group of drum corps fans to boo a group of kids that have worked for months to perform a show then I would call that "hatred."

There is nothing worse to me than when fans bring forth their disappointment in show design onto the members of the corps itself. I know alot of people have not enjoyed or liked the desicions made in show design by the Cadets or the Blue Devils over the past few years but their disappointment needs to be directed towards the people who make these decisions, the directors and show designers, over email or in person. A group of kids who work their tails off and have no say in what they are performing should never take the brunt of the insults being thrown at a corps over a show design.

I just hope this show will bring more fans into the Cadets.

Edited July 15, 2011 by amusicman

[garfield]

I have always been amazed at the hatred for George Hopkins. All of the changes he has pushed for have been done in the marching band world for over 20 years. So it's not as if he is pushing for changes and for things that have never been done before in another medium, and used quite successfully. If it was not for George Hopkins the dci world and show design would have become quite static awhile ago, thus giving people a whole other avenue to complain about.

You hit the nail on the head, but in reverse, IMO. From my perspective, the vast majority of the criticism towards Hop has come because he's implementing things that have been in the band world for years. His vision is to make drum corps more band like; he constantly trumpets his belief that the public doesn't understand the difference and, hence, DCI should just morph into marching band and be done with it. Those of us who disagree contend that the distinction drum corps has had for all these years is that one defining thing that makes it special.

Forget that, for years, marching bands longed to be drum corps in style and, now that they've attained it, Hop's idea is to forget about leading the activity and, instead, mimic marching bands. His belief is that if DCI looks like marching band we'll have a bigger audience to attract. I believe that if drum corps looks like marching band that even fewer band kids will bother to do band both in the fall and in the summer. Rhetorically, If it's not special and different what will entice band students to become a part of it? This concept is lost on GH, apparently.

While there are differing opinions in DCP-land, the only data to support that MMs come to drum corps because it's different from marching band was presented by Vaticinate's Project Persona. That study of then-current marching members showed clearly that the majority came to drum corps because it was NOT marching band. However, when that data was presented the most prominent answer in the room was that, obviously, Vaticinate asked the wrong people!

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Cadets because of what their shows have given me over nearly 30 years, and this years' show is the most exciting to me since 2000. There is no doubt that George knows how to put a show together and get his kids to bust their butts on making the best it can be. That realizaiton, however, doesn't endenture me to agree with Hop's vision of the future of the activity.

Edited July 15, 2011 by garfield

[behold888]

The main reason I used the word "hatred" is because of 2006. When the decisions and design of one man cause a group of drum corps fans to boo a group of kids that have worked for months to perform a show then I would call that "hatred."

There is nothing worse to me than when fans bring forth their disappointment in show design onto the members of the corps itself. I know alot of people have not enjoyed or liked the desicions made in show design by the Cadets or the Blue Devils over the past few years but their disappointment needs to be directed towards the people who make these decisions, the directors and show designers, over email or in person. A group of kids who work their tails off and have no say in what they are performing should never take the brunt of the insults being thrown at a corps over a show design.

I just hope this show will bring more fans into the Cadets.

It should be known that 2006 was the program design of Marc Sylvester, with input from Hopkins.