skywhopper Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Plus, how can you say you don't have enough information to give a suggestion about fixing the judging criteria? This is DCP!!!! Just think of something and say it!!!! How about fitting it under the blend criteria? Or create a penalty for certain levels of offense? I get that DCPers want to air their grievances sometimes without petitions and e-mails to DCI admin, which is cool, but to talk about their problems without offering any solutions at all? C'mon, that's weak. At least try and fail. I obviously don't have the same viewpoint on this that you do. There have been plenty of specific recommendations for a variety of fixes, so I don't understand why you keep saying no one is offering "any solutions". My #1, easy, concrete recommendation is to just drop electronics entirely. Go back to simple, understandable instrumentation that's easy to judge, is in complete control of the performers, and is highly unlikely to fail in a way that causes problems for the show. The Blue Stars actually made two proposals back in 2008 to cut back on electronics. One of their proposals would have limited amping to just front ensemble instruments (ie, no voice, which in retrospect they point out was controversial). The other would have removed A&E entirely. I enjoyed going back and re-reading the proposals (the Cadets' many proposals including the electronics expansion are first, and the Blue Stars' two are at the end). I think the Blue Stars made a fantastic case for dropping voice amping and/or dropping all amps, covering a number of the issues discussed here (they even mention "online discussion boards"), including bad blending indoors, confusion over judging, etc. Comparing the Blue Stars reasoned and detailed explanation for why amps should be scaled back to George Hopkins' proposal for electronics which comes across as a stream of consciousness sales pitch that spends no time explaining why electronics would be a good addition to drum corps, and explicitly demeans the idea of making any allowances for them in judging, and basically says that anyone who is against the idea is a reactionary hater who's stuck in the past and will probably die soon anyway, so we have to move forward to capture the youth (who apparently can't understand things that don't have an electronic component?). Seriously is this professional language? "But what can we do? Listen to the 40% … ??? Listen to the minority. Or hope, that over time we can grow to be more to more people … at all levels and all philosophical bases." Or this is his summation of what the impact on judging would be of adding unlimited non-acoustic instrumentation: JUDGING IMPACT: (How does this impact the adjudication process and individual judge?) I cannot see any. Judge what we do …. And how well we do it. Kind of like singing ☺ I cannot believe that anyone would read those competing proposals and vote with the one from the Cadets. But obviously, no one examined the proposals in detail and weighed arguments. They knew whether they wanted electronics or not and that's how they voted. What I wonder is how much of the carefree tone of George's proposal is in the rulebook? Is that what the judge's sheets say: "judge what we do and how well we do it, smiley-face"? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I haven't seen numbers from 2004 on, have you? If we don't know what the attendance was, how can there be a correlational link between attendance and A&E? I think the point is: if DCI hasn't released the numbers (or even stated that they are growing), then we can safely assume they are not growing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 That is fair. Hopefully, you stick around. There are many wonderful things happening in DCI. I know the best things I took away from the activity had nothing to do with the amount of electronics or whatever "controversy" has been assigned this week, and those things will always be there. Thank you. The wonderful part is what the kids do on the field, but there are plenty of kids doing wonderful stuff in a thousand other activities. In the end I will put my money down on something I enjoy being a part of. I guess the thing to me is: Someone like you wouldn't leave the activity if electronics were pulled from the rulebook, am I correct? Someone like me has already taken a 6 year hiatus exactly because of electronics, and if I don't like what I see and hear in Allentown, it will be a lot longer. You're not the only member of your tribe any more than I am of mine. So in hard economic times, shouldn't DCI follow the money and try not to #### off any more fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 The Blue Stars actually made two proposals back in 2008 to cut back on electronics. One of their proposals would have limited amping to just front ensemble instruments (ie, no voice, which in retrospect they point out was controversial). The other would have removed A&E entirely. I did not know that. I'm buying a Blue Stars t-shirt at Allentown for that, and I'll be sure to tell the nice folks at the souvie booth why. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I don't hate the topic. I hate linking attendance to the topic. It's insultingly simplistic. Is it part of the problem? Sure, but not the dominating cause like you make it out to be. Do I seem unhappy? I feel happy. I love drum corps!!! I don't want to hear overpowering electronics just as much as the next guy, but I don't know how the judging system is supposed to evaluate it. Are they supposed to drop placement? Lose a point? What? All I ever hear from DCP is that the judging should acknowledge it, but give no tangible means to make it so. And, more importantly, how would you know that they did acknowledge it in their score? We all know that scoring is more of a indicator of how much better or worse than the corps above or below them, so docking points based on that is counterproductive. I know what you'll say now: Drop a point for every electronic infraction. One: Tick system has been gone a while. Two: You would then have to do that for similar hornline, drumline, and guard infractions, which happen in every show. If that happens, you would be no longer judging, but frack counting, and any shlub can do that. if fans are telling DCI it's a reason they stop coming, it's a valid concern. yes the economy has hurt people, yet during other recessions in the 70s, 80s and 90s you had higher attendance. I didn't think we'd ever see lower numbers than the orlando years, but we have. if a corps continuously has balance issues with electronics in their performance, you shouldn't be popping box 5 numbers...yet it happens. judging electronics is the white, pink, purple, black and yellow elephant in the room. No one has the balls to take it on. Hell in this very thread one of the biggest people on DCP in favor of electronics usage has blasted how it's judged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Never mind a causal link here, I'm not even sure there's a correlational link between attendance and electronics in corps. Seems like a red herring... DCI has done fan surveys the last two years, and included are people who did not purchase tickets the following year. biggest concerns: Indy electronics show content pretty much all a tie. hence, the cesario initiative was begun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I haven't seen numbers from 2004 on, have you? If we don't know what the attendance was, how can there be a correlational link between attendance and A&E? DCI released numbers for every year til 2008 I believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 if fans are telling DCI it's a reason they stop coming, it's a valid concern. yes the economy has hurt people, yet during other recessions in the 70s, 80s and 90s you had higher attendance. I didn't think we'd ever see lower numbers than the orlando years, but we have. if a corps continuously has balance issues with electronics in their performance, you shouldn't be popping box 5 numbers...yet it happens. judging electronics is the white, pink, purple, black and yellow elephant in the room. No one has the balls to take it on. Hell in this very thread one of the biggest people on DCP in favor of electronics usage has blasted how it's judged. although I am not opposed to electronics or anything new I do agree that some usage and how it is judged is certainly an issue.I do think if there are issues with electronics it should reflect in the score...if a corps chooses to use them and its not working well thats their problem either fix it, or dont use it or face the consequences. If in guard I choose to use a heavier flag or a piece of equipment not to the norm ( cadets poles) and it sucks,,,, well thats my problem same should be with elecrronics.......................hey got a question for Percussion people...when did the pit become not loud enough...I admit Im not a drum person but I do remember tapes in the 90s saying OMG the pit is so loud, now they arent loud enough? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I did not know that. I'm buying a Blue Stars t-shirt at Allentown for that, and I'll be sure to tell the nice folks at the souvie booth why. Cheers! it was written by a Blue Stars parent if i recall. the corps put it in for him, but I don't believe even in caucus they voted for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 DCI has done fan surveys the last two years, and included are people who did not purchase tickets the following year. biggest concerns: Indy electronics show content pretty much all a tie. hence, the cesario initiative was begun not completely true or the whole picture.....its a small picture as Im told and thats why corps wont change it.ughhhhh..u always know how to get me...lol....... and we were getting along so well hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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