OldBones Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 That's as far as my memory goes too.... I remember an article in DC News that was nasty in tone for DCN. Said something like "someone" had it for Crossmen so turned them in when it hurt them most. Made no sense then either as no explaination was given. Just never remember a reason given for keeping them out of DCI Championships. Half the time I forget their DQ was NOT during Championships week. LOL, do remember being at Crossmens Spring concert show the following year as Westshore, Buccs and Crossmen would round robin. Can't repeat the words I heard from staff when someone brought up the DQ. It was the saddest night in Crossmen history. I happen to know that several corps directors were very upset when Crossmen formed. Their corps disbanded because it. The judges somehow knew the name of the over aged person. If memory serves me, Blue Stars reported the name to the judges. The overaged person never marched in Blue Stars. But he did march in one of the corps that disbanded. The only way Blue Stars would have gotten the name is because someone had it out for them. Funny, earlier that year, Crossmen were also checked for overaged members at a show in North Jersey. After they got off the field, the judges made them stand in line and checked ids of those suspected of being overaged. None were found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbasaurusRex Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) It is also $3000 in fees and another $2000 in transportation / spending money per year for a kid to compete in this fun, musical environment. That is serious money; cheating within that context is serious; and therefore it should should be dealt with as serious; period! All the more reason that those who have followed the rules shouldn't lose that investment because of poor decisions by the adults in charge, the ones they trusted to do the right thing with all that money. And no, it's not serious, it's kids running around playing music on a field wearing goofy hats. The New York Philharmonic on Mahler night is serious. Murder is serious. Having your home foreclosed by the bank is serious. Perspective. Edited October 11, 2011 by MarimbasaurusRex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAvery Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I don't recall the whole story....but the '76 Crossmen were confronted, caught and disqualified at the Sevierville, TN, show on August 2nd, the first stop on a Southern tour. The corps was disqualified from competing in DCI events for the remainder of the season, including the DCI Championships in their own hometown. I think they performed in exhibition in Sevierville, but I don't remember if they even made exhibition appearances at any of the other Southern shows. Crossmen competed in the World Open on August 14, 1976, taking 7th in finals after an 8th-place prelim finish. The World Open was not a DCI-sanctioned show, so the DQ did not apply there. But it doesn't explain why they were DQ'd for the remainder of the season, rather than that one show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 All the more reason that those who have followed the rules shouldn't lose that investment because of poor decisions by the adults in charge, the ones they trusted to do the right thing with all that money. And no, it's not serious, it's kids running around playing music on a field wearing goofy hats. The New York Philharmonic on Mahler night is serious. Murder is serious. Having your home foreclosed by the bank is serious. Perspective. a) The fact that everyone will lose in the situation is a huge deturent for anyone considering commiting fraud and cheating. b) I am not talking about the seriousness (or lack thereof) concerning drum corps, but the seriousness of personal accountability of action. The "act" of forging papers, whether it is to get into a little league baseball team or to secure a job at a fortune 500 company, and the "act" of cheating, whether it is in the game of checkers or in the world of a multi-million dollar business transaction, are both serious actions; granted not as serious as murder, but serious actions nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 But it doesn't explain why they were DQ'd for the remainder of the season, rather than that one show. Should have added I have no idea what DCIs rules were at the time (IOW one show or rest of season).... Then again... what are the rules today.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Not sure how many Muchachos there were but instead of penalizing the huge majority of kids that were in the corps, wouldn't it have been a better idea for Muchachos to take those kids out, let the corps march with holes, and deal with the dumb as s adults at a later time? We're talking 15-21 year old kids that spent a lot of time practicing and fundraising to make the season happen. Go after the staff and director after finals. This isn't professional sports! They're not Pete Rose. Kids! Just seemed like a terrible way to handle the situation. As a school admiinistrator, I would not want to punish the 98% that followed the rules, just the 2% and the staff that knew. it was 1 person caught or singled out carrying an ID on the field ( which he was told not to, as the story goes ) although there were others in Muchachos , especially the drum line. BUT there were also many others in other corps that year. Thats why there were sooooo many holes in corps in finals Edited October 12, 2011 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbasaurusRex Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) a) The fact that everyone will lose in the situation is a huge deturent for anyone considering commiting fraud and cheating. b) I am not talking about the seriousness (or lack thereof) concerning drum corps, but the seriousness of personal accountability of action. The "act" of forging papers, whether it is to get into a little league baseball team or to secure a job at a fortune 500 company, and the "act" of cheating, whether it is in the game of checkers or in the world of a multi-million dollar business transaction, are both serious actions; granted not as serious as murder, but serious actions nonetheless. I agree that it's a deterrent. But that doesn't necessarily stop it from happening (as we saw in 77). Those who will do that sort of thing don't really care if they take everyone else down with them. The guilty party should definitely have a real price to pay. I just feel for the innocents who were victimized by the cheaters and then further victimized by DCI. We were ALL victimized by it, especially in the national TV days. It made all of DCI look bad, first because of the cheating and then because of the punishment. Nobody wants to see the innocent members punished and embarrassed in a national spotlight and that's exactly what happened. I understand why they may have felt they needed to do it, but the public acknowledgement of cheaters in the ranks did nothing to further a national interest in drum corps. The huge deterrent was one toward local participation. It's a fine line between enforcing the letter of the rules and shooting yourself in the foot. It should be noted that the adults who broke or "misinterpreted" the rules paid very little price at all, if any. They weren't the one's being DQ'd, the kids were, and the adults continued in their positions for years to come. And I know for a fact that the deterrent didn't stop the cheating. It just made people cover their tracks better. Edited October 12, 2011 by MarimbasaurusRex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAvery Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 It should be noted that the adults who broke or "misinterpreted" the rules paid very little price at all, if any. They weren't the one's being DQ'd, the kids were, and the adults continued in their positions for years to come. And I know for a fact that the deterrent didn't stop the cheating. It just made people cover their tracks better. I suspect marching overage members continued until the early 90's, maybe longer. I had a couple of guard girls that wanted to march in a corps and my guard instructor took them to a camp in the fall of 91. The girls made the guard and the instructor was asked to march. When she said she was overage, they told her that could be worked out. She told them no thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 But it doesn't explain why they were DQ'd for the remainder of the season, rather than that one show. As I understand it, the acknowledged penalty for marching an overage member in DCI has always been disqualification from all DCI contests for the remainder of the season. The '76 Crossmen were the only corps to have this punishment implemented prior to championship week, thus taking them out of regular-season contests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Not inconsistent at all. In the other situations the staff and the performers just ignored the rule and tried to get away with skirting the rule. However, in the 89 SCV situation, If I understand it correctly, the cheating members duped the staff and the corps members (by actually forging legal documents). Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you personally interviewed every marcher and staffer from the '75 Muchachos, '76 Crossmen, '77 Bridgemen and '84 Eclipses, and confirmed that they knowingly and unanimously colluded to break the DCI age rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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