hostrauser Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Go back to 80 to 81, and you see SCV going from 7th to 1st in one year. You're comparing apples to oranges. That was a completely different era: different corps goals, different judging system, different show expectations. It's like comparing the dead-ball era to the live-ball era in baseball. For me, nothing from the early-80s and prior can be directly compared to the mid/late-80s and forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 You're comparing apples to oranges. That was a completely different era: different corps goals, different judging system, different show expectations. It's like comparing the dead-ball era to the live-ball era in baseball. For me, nothing from the early-80s and prior can be directly compared to the mid/late-80s and forward. although I would not be surprised on bit if Cavaliers were competing for the title next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) I was hoping for Cavies to finish 9th, not because of my opinion of the show or fondness for Madison or Boston, but from a purely scientific perspective. As an experiment just to see if the ToC shows would stick to the never-quite-spelled-out rules and go on in 2013 without them. Same here. My sentiments exactly. I 'm glad that the Boston Crusaders ( for example ) was the Corps that has sort of blown up the orginal G7's rules of inclusion. I was hoping for the Madison Scouts to finish in the top 8 for this reason too. Nothing against the Cavs ( they were refreshingly one of the Corps that reportedly was not all that entralled with the G7's plans). I'm glad to see the Boston Crusaders qualifying for the TOC for 2 years in a row now, but I find this G8 bit within the World Class Division still too divisive for my taste. Edited August 13, 2012 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) For me, nothing from the early-80s and prior can be directly compared to the mid/late-80s and forward. You seem to think that everything changed this season from last year. Did the brass arranger or percussion caption heads change? Nope. Same staff that got second in Music GE in 2011 and won drums last year were still there this summer. The overall program choices didn't work, and the gap at the beginning of the season was big enough that it couldn't be closed. Oh well, that happens. See "Regiment, Phantom: 2009" (or can't they be used for comparison either?). Edited August 13, 2012 by mobrien 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) You seem to think that everything changed this season from last year. Did the brass arranger or percussion caption heads change? Nope. Same staff that got second in Music GE in 2011 and won drums last year were still there this summer. The overall program choices didn't work, and the gap at the beginning of the season was big enough that it couldn't be closed. Oh well, that happens. See "Regiment, Phantom: 2009" (or can't they be used for comparison either?). If we look at things from a historical perspective, one could expect the Cavaliers to perhaps move up or down, 2 or 3 positions from their 9th place position of this season. Thats certainly within reason. Phantom Regiment went up 3 spots from 9th to 6th from 2009 to 2011 ( after moving up 3 spots from 4th to 1st from 07 to '08 ). To believe that a Corps will move up from 9th to ( say ) top 4 the following year is as likely as the Cavaliers moving down and out of the DCI Top 12 in one year from the 9th position. These placements shifts within the top 12 of 4 or more placement positions from one season to the next is exceedingly rare... and even rarer still since the 1980's. Edited August 13, 2012 by BRASSO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 If we look at things from a historical perspective, one could expect the Cavaliers to perhaps move up or down, 2 or 3 positions from their 9th place position of this season. Thats certainly within reason. Phantom Regiment went up 3 spots from 9th to 6th from 2009 to 2011 ( after moving up 3 spots from 4th to 1st from 07 to '08 ). To believe that a Corps will move up from 9th to ( say ) top 4 the following year is as likely as the Cavaliers moving down and out of the DCI Top 12 in one year from the 9th position. These placements shifts within the top 12 of 4 or more placement positions from one season to the next is exceedingly rare... and even rarer still since the 1980's. they got 8th not 9th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdaddy Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 If we look at things from a historical perspective, one could expect the Cavaliers to perhaps move up or down, 2 or 3 positions from their 9th place position of this season. Thats certainly within reason. Phantom Regiment went up 3 spots from 9th to 6th from 2009 to 2011 ( after moving up 3 spots from 4th to 1st from 07 to '08 ). To believe that a Corps will move up from 9th to ( say ) top 4 the following year is as likely as the Cavaliers moving down and out of the DCI Top 12 in one year from the 9th position. These placements shifts within the top 12 of 4 or more placement positions from one season to the next is exceedingly rare... and even rarer still since the 1980's. Your "To believe that a..." sentence isn't a complete though, so I'm not sure which direction you were going, but I don't see the Cavies continuing to fall. This isn't a random walk. It was pointed out that Cavies actually finished in 8th, and really they were 7th on Thursday and Friday. Much like PR was 8th in 2009 until being caught by Blue Stars. Both justifiable, in my opinion, but pointed out to show how close both Cavies 12 and PR 09 were to placing one spot higher. In both cases, the visual aspect of the show was considered the weakest link, and when you're having to repair visual design all summer, the rest of the aspects of the show suffer. Fixing that glaring error (as I'm sure Cavies will do, much like PR did) will likely lead to an increase in placement. Perhaps it's more akin to PR in 1998, where it took several seasons to rebound. Regardless, PR didn't continue the downward spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Perhaps it's more akin to PR in 1998, where it took several seasons to rebound. Regardless, PR didn't continue the downward spiral. This was actually the point I was going for. I seriously doubt the Cavaliers are going to drop out of Finals next year. I also seriously doubt they'll rebound like 2012 never happened and be in the Top 3. In MODERN DCI, it takes years to rebound from sudden huge drops like this... Blue Knights 2000 - 6th (92.00) Blue Knights 2001 - 14th (83.90) Blue Knights 2002 - 13th Blue Knights 2003 - 13th Blue Knights 2004 - 10th Blue Knights 2005 - 10th Blue Knights 2006 - 7th (90.125) SCV 2004 - 3rd (96.825) SCV 2005 - 8th (88.650) SCV 2006 - 6th (92.350) SCV 2007 - 5th (94.175) Phantom 2008 - 1st (98.125) Phantom 2009 - 9th (89.900) Phantom 2010 - 6th (93.150) Phantom 2011 - 5th (95.050) Phantom 2012 - 3rd (96.550) The Cavaliers will more than likely be 5th-7th place next season, and maybe 3rd or 4th in 2014. But I would be stunned if they became an "instant contender" just one year where so much "went wrong" (not just visual design and execution; let's not forget they were 8th in Brass and Music Analysis, too). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 OK sorry - but I had to Your "To believe that a..." sentence isn't a complete though, so I'm not sure which direction you were going, pure geniu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabadabadoo Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 You seem to think that everything changed this season from last year. Did the brass arranger or percussion caption heads change? Nope. Same staff that got second in Music GE in 2011 and won drums last year were still there this summer. The overall program choices didn't work, and the gap at the beginning of the season was big enough that it couldn't be closed. Oh well, that happens. See "Regiment, Phantom: 2009" (or can't they be used for comparison either?). No. Some might see it as me being bias, but Cavaliers are a better corps overall IMO. In 2009, the competition wasn't nearly as competitive as it is now. Only a fool would think that. Everyone was at the top of their game this year. Not knocking the 2009 season, but if the 2012 shows were performed in 2009, BD probably wouldn't of broken 99. I can't say where phantom would have placed this year, but i'm pretty positive it wouldn't of been 9th. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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