Can you lose your World Class Status?

[Kamarag]

While it is true that the financial health of a drum corps is important, how big of an impact should that have on World Class Status.

90%

Should it be more important than the corps performance.

Yes.

Should it be more important than the educational impact it has on the members?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

What is the point of calling a wealthy drum corps world class if it can barely produce a drum corps show, doesn't compete with anyone and only serves less than 48 members.

As long as the corps are meeting the other criteria for World Class status, who cares? Corps must meet minimum standards for shows attended, going to championships, etc. As long as they do that, the stuff you mentioned is meaningless. You're probably directing those shots at Pioneer and maybe Cascades. Those two corps might get whipped by the other 21 on the competition field, but they give their members a world class drum corps experience.

Being called World Class should mean more than being able to balance the books.

It's exactly that way now, but without the financial stability, the rest is impossible.

[PurpleKnights]

As long as the corps are meeting the other criteria for World Class status, who cares? Corps must meet minimum standards for shows attended, going to championships, etc. As long as they do that, the stuff you mentioned is meaningless. You're probably directing those shots at Pioneer and maybe Cascades. Those two corps might get whipped by the other 21 on the competition field, but they give their members a world class drum corps experience.

What about corps that almost fold on tour, are they giving their members a world class drum corp experience?

[argonaut]

90%

Yes.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

As long as the corps are meeting the other criteria for World Class status, who cares? Corps must meet minimum standards for shows attended, going to championships, etc. As long as they do that, the stuff you mentioned is meaningless. You're probably directing those shots at Pioneer and maybe Cascades. Those two corps might get whipped by the other 21 on the competition field, but they give their members a world class drum corps experience.

It's exactly that way now, but without the financial stability, the rest is impossible.

I personally think that 90% is a bit high, but if that's the criteria, than lets see how many current world class corps would remain. I also wonder how many open class would move up. If we are going to rate the finacial health of drum corps, than I think that it should be some kind of seal of approval, rather that putting them in a world class status. I also beleive that this should not be judged by the DCI board and the top 12 corps directors. It should be determined by an independent accounting firm. The bottom line is that without finacial health, no corps is going to survive. It is important, but only one aspect of the activity.

If the financial health is more important than the performance level, than we shouldn't make this acivity a competitive one.

I think the educational experiance is tied into everything, but you can have a great educational expericance regardless of the financial health or performance of the drum corps.

My point is that the criteria is not clear and transparent and the decision is left to a vote of the directors and DCI board. It should be clear cut and not subject to a group vote. I am not directing this at Pioneer or the Cascades. I said in my earlier post that Pioneer is an example of a corp that should remain in world class, despite it's ranking. I used the Cascades as an example, because the performed at a show I attended and this was a discussion amoungst the folks that were setting next to me. They didn't understand why they were world class and the Spokane Thunder where not.

I started this thread to figure out what determine if there is a clear procces for a drum corps to be moved out of world class to open class, but no one has really answered that question. I don't beleive that any corps have been changed since the change to open and world. It bothers me that it is something that many corps strive to acheive, but few ever do. They should not be world class for life. If you look at our history, we have corps that have made the top tweleve and folded. Corps that have made the top 12 and folded only to reform later entering at a smaller class and work their way back up to the top of the heap. The Blue Stars are an example of that. The Velvet Knight are another corps that have recently reformed in open class. I think that it is, in the long run, better corps to be placed in their performance level.

Edited July 2, 2012 by argonaut

[Kamarag]

What about corps that almost fold on tour, are they giving their members a world class drum corp experience?

When is the last time that happened? Be specific, please.

[cixelsyd]

If anything, it's the opposite: lower tiered corps need the upper tiered corps to survive. If Pacific Crest hosts a show with no Finalists, it would not be as well attended show, they would have problems keeping consistent sponsors & show sights, etc. I would imagine annual attendance would gradually drop, and at some point sooner than later it would become cost prohibitive to host a show, corps would make less money in the long run, etc.

Without the lower corps:

There would be no Pacific Crest to host the show.

There would be no finalists. With only 7 corps, no need for preliminary and final rounds.

You would have problems keeping sponsors, as many shows are sponsored by those lower corps that would no longer exist.

Annual attendance would drop immediately.

With only 7 corps and so few show aponsors, it would be cost prohibitive to string a tour together.

So who needs who?

[Rifuarian]

My point is that the criteria is not clear and transparent and the decision is left to a vote of the directors and DCI board. It should be clear cut and not subject to a group vote. I am not directing this at Pioneer or the Cascades. I said in my earlier post that Pioneer is an example of a corp that should remain in world class, despite it's ranking. I used the Cascades as an example, because the performed at a show I attended and this was a discussion amoungst the folks that were setting next to me. They didn't understand why they were world class and the Spokane Thunder where not.

I started this thread to figure out what determine if there is a clear procces for a drum corps to be moved out of world class to open class, but no one has really answered that question. I don't beleive that any corps have been changed since the change to open and world. It bothers me that it is something that many corps strive to acheive, but few ever do. They should not be world class for life. If you look at our history, we have corps that have made the top tweleve and folded. Corps that have made the top 12 and folded only to reform later entering at a smaller class and work their way back up to the top of the heap. The Blue Stars are an example of that. The Velvet Knight are another corps that have recently reformed in open class. I think that it is, in the long run, better corps to be placed in their performance level.

The review process is conducted by an independent committee, not the BoD. Yes, the board does vote on petitions to move a corps to World Class, but all that amounts to is a rubber stamp. I don't think any of these petitions have been denied once a corps has "passed" the review. Besides, DCI is the corps, so why shouldn't the corps get to vote on who's admitted to their ranks? It's not exactly a "big boys club" that keeps some corps out. A group like Oregon Crusaders, for example, could go World Class any time they wanted. But they've made it very clear that they don't feel ready yet.

I do agree that all corps should undergo a review process every five years or so, and that those who do not pass should face relegation. But that will never happen, for a couple of reasons. First off, some of the top level corps could end up being very embarrassed by such a review. Not saying they'd be downgraded to open class, but there have been times in the past decade when some of our "best" corps haven't quite lived up to World Class status. Second, if corps face the possibility relegation that would be a huge deterrent to making the move to WC (doubly so if relegation is performance-based), which would be bad for the activity, IMO.

[PurpleKnights]

When is the last time that happened? Be specific, please.

Are you serious? Corps almost folding happens ALL the time. And we know that it happens all the time because:

1) Corps actually folding happens all the time.

2) The way the system is set up, the only way out of World Class is complete financial ruin.

[Kamarag]

I personally think that 90% is a bit high, but if that's the criteria, than lets see how many current world class corps would remain. I also wonder how many open class would move up. If we are going to rate the finacial health of drum corps, than I think that it should be some kind of seal of approval, rather that putting them in a world class status. I also beleive that this should not be judged by the DCI board and the top 12 corps directors. It should be determined by an independent accounting firm. The bottom line is that without finacial health, no corps is going to survive. It is important, but only one aspect of the activity.

Well, we've only had two Open Class corps go through the World Class evaluation process since the rules were changed. It's not like DCI requires existing WC corps to be evaluated (though they certainly should).

If the financial health is more important than the performance level, than we shouldn't make this acivity a competitive one.

I disagree. You can have corps that go out with no shot at winning. Heck, we have like 18-19 of those every year. It's not DCI's or the corps in DCI's job to ensure parity. Heck, many entertaining shows in DCI's history never made finals. The duel in 2010 between Crossmen, Pacific Crest, Mandarins, and Teal Sound was really fun to watch, and they were all between 17-20.

I think the educational experiance is tied into everything, but you can have a great educational expericance regardless of the financial health or performance of the drum corps.

How educational is participating in a financially tenuous organization, even if you don't know it's tenuous? And for that matter, while it could be educational, the real question is should it be? I'd argue no.

My point is that the criteria is not clear and transparent and the decision is left to a vote of the directors and DCI board. It should be clear cut and not subject to a group vote. I am not directing this at Pioneer or the Cascades. I said in my earlier post that Pioneer is an example of a corp that should remain in world class, despite it's ranking. I used the Cascades as an example, because the performed at a show I attended and this was a discussion amoungst the folks that were setting next to me. They didn't understand why they were world class and the Spokane Thunder where not.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. While I think DCI has figured out how to get corps into World Class the right way, I'd applaud a tighter reign on the process of staying in World Class. Should there be a minimum performance level requirement? Yes, you;ve convinced me there should. But don't tie it to placement.

Though I loath comparing DCI to professional sports, there is a decent example of what you're talking about. In NASCAR (and any race circuit), slow cars that cannot maintain a minimum speed are deemed unsafe and removed from the race. I think that's something worth exploring in DCI, at least in principle. I am not advocating yanking a corps off the road mid-season just because they suck, so early identification is the key, if it's possible at all.

I started this thread to figure out what determine if there is a clear procces for a drum corps to be moved out of world class to open class, but no one has really answered that question. I don't beleive that any corps have been changed since the change to open and world. It bothers me that it is something that many corps strive to acheive, but few ever do. They should not be world class for life. If you look at our history, we have corps that have made the top tweleve and folded. Corps that have made the top 12 and folded only to reform later entering at a smaller class and work their way back up to the top of the heap. The Blue Stars are an example of that. The Velvet Knight are another corps that have recently reformed in open class. I think that it is, in the long run, better corps to be placed in their performance level.

Great points. Perhaps DCI should employ some sort of relegation process (here's another crappy sports analogy: like in English soccer)? I know that was between the lines in the G7 proposal (though thinly veiled).

[PurpleKnights]

The review process is conducted by an independent committee, not the BoD. Yes, the board does vote on petitions to move a corps to World Class, but all that amounts to is a rubber stamp. I don't think any of these petitions have been denied once a corps has "passed" the review. Besides, DCI is the corps, so why shouldn't the corps get to vote on who's admitted to their ranks? It's not exactly a "big boys club" that keeps some corps out. A group like Oregon Crusaders, for example, could go World Class any time they wanted. But they've made it very clear that they don't feel ready yet.

I do agree that all corps should undergo a review process every five years or so, and that those who do not pass should face relegation. But that will never happen, for a couple of reasons. First off, some of the top level corps could end up being very embarrassed by such a review. Not saying they'd be downgraded to open class, but there have been times in the past decade when some of our "best" corps haven't quite lived up to World Class status. Second, if corps face the possibility relegation that would be a huge deterrent to making the move to WC (doubly so if relegation is performance-based), which would be bad for the activity, IMO.

I don't think anyone's upset about the way Open Class corps apply to and join World Class. The problem is that it's a lifetime appointment.

There will never be a deterrent to joining World Class as long as World Class is more attractive to members (it always will be) and the performance fees Open Class corps don't get are there.

[Kamarag]

Are you serious? Corps almost folding happens ALL the time. And we know that it happens all the time because:

When's the last time a world class corps folded mid-season? (I know there have been issues, I'm asking for specific data)