John Brazale Best Visual Award Tie

[skywhopper]

My concern is that the articles written up about the scores (here and here) both assert there was a tie and both corps received the award, and I think clarification is warranted. These stats (what corps has won how many awards etc) are not just obsessed over by fans, but they are cited by DCI and by corps in promotional material. If the fact that the announcement was bungled overrides the announced rules (another sore spot, that the rules are unpublished and unverifiable), then whatever, that's fine, make it clear. Otherwise, fix the error and state that Crown won the VP award outright.

If the final outcome *doesn't* matter, then why give the award at all?

[Michael Boo]

I have checked through the forums and through the entire Finals Night topic and have not found an answer to my question about this tie. It was mentioned in the Finals Night topic, but no one responded.

Supposedly, Blue Devils and Carolina Crown tied for the newly named John Brazale Best Visual Performance Award. I have established that this award is determined by JUST the Visual Proficiency score and nothing else. Also, Brandt Crocker made sure to announce the tie policy on Finals Night before any of the Caption Awards were announced. The policy is that, in the event of a tie from the average of the scores from the three nights, the corps who has the highest score on Finals Night will break the tie and win the award. Okay. That being said, let's look at the numbers.

Just so you can see my references, here are the three recaps:

Prelims: http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?event_id=5f186909-1ed4-4a7f-bd47-02ef4a2f18fd

Semifinals: http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?event_id=d3f6307d-2d4c-41c3-a3c5-9801979697e1

Finals: http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?event_id=d3695655-2738-4fc6-94b7-d7fe9e874b49

Okay ... and now the numbers.

Blue Devils

Prelims: 19.5

Semifinals: 19.4

Finals: 19.5

Average: 19.466667

Carolina Crown

Prelims: 19.1

Semifinals: 19.6

Finals: 19.7

Average: 19.466667

So, yes .. there was a tie from averaging the three nights scores. However ... the two corps did not tie on Finals Night. Therefore, according to the rules, Carolina Crown won the award outright ... not in a tie with Blue Devils.

I have not started this topic to flame BD or talk about a conspiracy or anything ... I just want to know why this has not been discussed. Can anyone shed some light on this? Michael Boo, perhaps?

Here's what I've found out, (This has greatly intrigued me as well, so I've been trying to get to the bottom of it.)

In 2001, a rule was passed that eliminated ties. In 2009, George Hopkins made a motion at the Rules Congress to eliminate the rule that eliminated ties. This came up suddenly, during the event, and it was unanimously approved by all the directors.

The script handed to Brandt was one thing that had not been changed over the years and no one (including me) caught it.

So, the answer is: Yes, ties are allowed in the caption awards, despite what Brandt announced earlier because he read exactly what was given to him.

And for those who didn't see an earlier thread; the confusion about the brass trophy came up because Brandt was given two sheets...one with the caption awards and one with the scores. He had to go between the two during his announcements and his eyes went to the name above a caption award instead of below. Someone was pointing to each to keep him on track, but it was just to keep him reading off the correct sheet at the proper time. This too will be corrected as Brandt will from now on be given a single sheet in script form that will allow him to simply read from the top down in finale.

The talk among some about Brandt needing to be replaced due to the issue at Finals, without knowing what was happening behind the scenes, was troubling. Brandt is neither feeble, past his prime or incompetent. He is Brandt Crocker, and has more than earned being embraced by all in the activity. He's as vital now as he was in 1972. Would someone please do a mock-up t-shirt in PhotoShop with his photo and the words, "Needs more Brandt"?

[StuStu]

Here's what I've found out, (This has greatly intrigued me as well, so I've been trying to get to the bottom of it.)

In 2001, a rule was passed that eliminated ties. In 2009, George Hopkins made a motion at the Rules Congress to eliminate the rule that eliminated ties. This came up suddenly, during the event, and it was unanimously approved by all the directors.

The script handed to Brandt was one thing that had not been changed over the years and no one (including me) caught it.

So, the answer is: Yes, ties are allowed in the caption awards, despite what Brandt announced earlier because he read exactly what was given to him.

And for those who didn't see an earlier thread; the confusion about the brass trophy came up because Brandt was given two sheets...one with the caption awards and one with the scores. He had to go between the two during his announcements and his eyes went to the name above a caption award instead of below. Someone was pointing to each to keep him on track, but it was just to keep him reading off the correct sheet at the proper time. This too will be corrected as Brandt will from now on be given a single sheet in script form that will allow him to simply read from the top down in finale.

The talk among some about Brandt needing to be replaced due to the issue at Finals, without knowing what was happening behind the scenes, was troubling. Brandt is neither feeble, past his prime or incompetent. He is Brandt Crocker, and has more than earned being embraced by all in the activity. He's as vital now as he was in 1972. Would someone please do a mock-up t-shirt in PhotoShop with his photo and the words, "Needs more Brandt"?

I just assumed it was an error made before Brandt was given the information. If he read the wrong line in a confusing situation, well, if anyone has earned a pass, it's him.

In fact, I was having a couple of beers with old marching buddies after the show, and we agreed we'd like to have dinner with Brandt Crocker and Steve Rondinero. Their narration is a huge part of my life's soundtrack.

[BetoSuave]

Here's what I've found out, (This has greatly intrigued me as well, so I've been trying to get to the bottom of it.)

In 2001, a rule was passed that eliminated ties. In 2009, George Hopkins made a motion at the Rules Congress to eliminate the rule that eliminated ties. This came up suddenly, during the event, and it was unanimously approved by all the directors.

The script handed to Brandt was one thing that had not been changed over the years and no one (including me) caught it.

So, the answer is: Yes, ties are allowed in the caption awards, despite what Brandt announced earlier because he read exactly what was given to him.

And for those who didn't see an earlier thread; the confusion about the brass trophy came up because Brandt was given two sheets...one with the caption awards and one with the scores. He had to go between the two during his announcements and his eyes went to the name above a caption award instead of below. Someone was pointing to each to keep him on track, but it was just to keep him reading off the correct sheet at the proper time. This too will be corrected as Brandt will from now on be given a single sheet in script form that will allow him to simply read from the top down in finale.

The talk among some about Brandt needing to be replaced due to the issue at Finals, without knowing what was happening behind the scenes, was troubling. Brandt is neither feeble, past his prime or incompetent. He is Brandt Crocker, and has more than earned being embraced by all in the activity. He's as vital now as he was in 1972. Would someone please do a mock-up t-shirt in PhotoShop with his photo and the words, "Needs more Brandt"?

That's all well and good but why is it so difficult for DCI to print a correction on their website, as suggested above and previously? I realize an apology for the mistake(s) would be too much to ask but a simple correction notice would be appropriate.

While I appreciate your explanation here and participation in the forum Mike, has DCI adopted DCP as its official source for updates, corrections, and explanation?

[Michael Boo]

That's all well and good but why is it so difficult for DCI to print a correction on their website, as suggested above and previously? I realize an apology for the mistake(s) would be too much to ask but a simple correction notice would be appropriate.

While I appreciate your explanation here and participation in the forum Mike, has DCI adopted DCP as its official source for updates, corrections, and explanation?

No, but since I'm around and have access to info while the office is closed for a much deserved break, I don't mind posting what I know or what I've been able to find out.

If it seems as you asked, it may be only because I've done as I've mentioned above, and perhaps that's a bad thing if it leads to any confusion.

PS: On further thought...if a question is asked on DCP, I believe it's not inappropriate to answer it here. I suspect that most, if not everything I've brought to light here, originated on DCP.

Every question deserves an answer, but perhaps every question doesn't warrant a press release of some sort.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Michael Boo

[flammaster]

But the applause...yada yada

[BetoSuave]

No, but since I'm around and have access to info while the office is closed for a much deserved break, I don't mind posting what I know or what I've been able to find out.

If it seems as you asked, it may be only because I've done as I've mentioned above, and perhaps that's a bad thing if it leads to any confusion.

PS: On further thought...if a question is asked on DCP, I believe it's not inappropriate to answer it here. I suspect that most, if not everything I've brought to light here, originated on DCP.

Every question deserves an answer, but perhaps every question doesn't warrant a press release of some sort.

Again, your participation on DCP is appreciated by myself, Rex, and others I'm sure. We agree that "every question doesn't warrant a press release of some sort".

However, on the 'authoritative source' for DCI competition information - in an article that you wrote, in-fact - the information is wrong and has not as of this moment been corrected. Your article STILL says "There was a tie for the John Brazale Best Visual Performance Award, between Blue Devils and Carolina Crown."

I realize this is a little itty-bitty point and grant you that in the overall scheme of things, its a minor detail. However, when corps and fans go a-braggin (as they've earned, respectively) about the 2012 results in the future - the 'official' site for the activity has it wrong, despite the error having been brought to the author's attention.

As skywhopper notes above [with my edit], "If the final outcome *doesn't* matter [enough to be correctly reported by DCI in their official reporting], then why give the award at all?"

OK - I've beat this drum enough. Peace out.

[fsubone]

In my opinion, caption awards should be determined by the finals performance. When did DCI start averaging the last 3 scores?

I believe it's been since 2007 or 2008, I think in order to break ties in caption awards. I don't know the reasoning, but I seem to remember that it started about the same time I started marching.

[oldbandguy]

I believe it's been since 2007 or 2008, I think in order to break ties in caption awards. I don't know the reasoning, but I seem to remember that it started about the same time I started marching.

No...the 3 night average was happening well before 2007.

[Plan9]

The talk among some about Brandt needing to be replaced due to the issue at Finals, without knowing what was happening behind the scenes, was troubling. Brandt is neither feeble, past his prime or incompetent. He is Brandt Crocker, and has more than earned being embraced by all in the activity. He's as vital now as he was in 1972. Would someone please do a mock-up t-shirt in PhotoShop with his photo and the words, "Needs more Brandt"?

This doesn't surprise me at all, Boo. There has been more than a few Queen of Hearts threads this post season, demanding "off with their heads!" And IMO, more than usual. i.e. This corps doesn't do well in a certain caption....off with his head..that is, caption head!; This design team doesn't deliver a medal....off with their heads; This announcer makes a small (yet dramatic ) mistake...off with his head! We have a hyper competitive society with a "fast food" immediate gratification mentality. As I have said so often (perhaps, ad nauseam).... success in DC is built on stability and consistency, not on the Donald Trump method....."your fired!" (as amusing at that might be!)