Dancing/Non-marching movement

[jasgre2000]

I have noticed a few of the older fans here complain about corps dancing and performing other non-marching movements in shows, and how it is a change they don't like. I don't agree with that sentiment, but can understand and respect it.

With that said, I don't understand why some suggest that it is a new thing. SCV did it as early as 1984 and The Cadets did it a few years later ... I think several corps did it in 1989. Does anyone know when the first instance of it occurred?

[wesleyrp]

I think when you talk of this you have to say... Who made it main stream? A few corps danced/had body movement in the 80s but I think Star '93 took it to another level. BK I think took that and ran with it between 99-08. To me, BK is the one that took body movement to another level. Each member in the corps was held responsible to move and dance like a guard member. There are many corps that are now doing this though to mr Star and then BK were the mist responsible parties for upping the dance movement in drum corps!

[JonW]

Not speaking for anyone but myself here and fairly certain attempts to 'educate' me will follow, but...

Yes, aspects of dance can be found in corps performances dating well back into the late 60s, early 70s, primarily done within rifle units. Guard also incorporated dance in segments of the show too. A little harder to find in the earlier years, but there was some body movement within horn lines and percussion units, but nothing any where near as dramatic as what is currently being done.

Sooo, you are correct - it is nothing 'new' to the drum corps scene.

I don't believe you will find many complaints towards what the guard is doing - There are some truly remarkable performances on display. Drummers have always been showmen (showboats? hehe) and love throwing some razzle in with the dazzle... exaggerated gestures are part of that. Where I suspect most of the animosity originates is when the brass actually puts down the horn and flops around on the field. That runs counter to not only decades of training, but also the desire to blow throughout the show. Sure, we had drum breaks (some really good ones that actually lead to the next song [different topic, different thread]), but the horns played for a good ten minutes of each show!

Now, with the infusion of extended dance sequences (including brass), something needed to be sacrificed to accommodate it - unfortunately, that something is the music - primarily brass. I'm guessing that goes hand-in-hand with the growth of the pit - a large chunk of the score has been passed to the pit, creating left over space for the brass to flop around.

There are countless posts detailing how the current members are all better trained, etc, and that this is needed to keep them interested. I gotta question that. Would you, as a brass player, prefer to fill the show with ten solid minutes of music, or would you prefer 6 minutes of music and 6 minutes of dance? Again, I am guessing here, a majority would take the ten minutes.

(Unless, of course, the dance is gonna get them laid... )

Except, the shows design no longer allows for that, does it?

That, I suspect, is where the complaints arise. Rather than a show filled with fully-fleshed songs played by highly skilled brass players, you get random blasts filled with unnecessary movement (yes, an over-simplified opinion; hoping to forestall some nimrod tooting "that's just your opinion!". Of course it is, dingo).

I greatly admire today's guard; graceful, gorgeous, stunningly athletic. I dislike seeing a prancing hornline that could instead be blowing the stands down - y'know, the way things used to be, right? ha!

[actucker]

Not speaking for anyone but myself here and fairly certain attempts to 'educate' me will follow, but...

Yes, aspects of dance can be found in corps performances dating well back into the late 60s, early 70s, primarily done within rifle units. Guard also incorporated dance in segments of the show too. A little harder to find in the earlier years, but there was some body movement within horn lines and percussion units, but nothing any where near as dramatic as what is currently being done.

Sooo, you are correct - it is nothing 'new' to the drum corps scene.

I don't believe you will find many complaints towards what the guard is doing - There are some truly remarkable performances on display. Drummers have always been showmen (showboats? hehe) and love throwing some razzle in with the dazzle... exaggerated gestures are part of that. Where I suspect most of the animosity originates is when the brass actually puts down the horn and flops around on the field. That runs counter to not only decades of training, but also the desire to blow throughout the show. Sure, we had drum breaks (some really good ones that actually lead to the next song [different topic, different thread]), but the horns played for a good ten minutes of each show!

Now, with the infusion of extended dance sequences (including brass), something needed to be sacrificed to accommodate it - unfortunately, that something is the music - primarily brass. I'm guessing that goes hand-in-hand with the growth of the pit - a large chunk of the score has been passed to the pit, creating left over space for the brass to flop around.

There are countless posts detailing how the current members are all better trained, etc, and that this is needed to keep them interested. I gotta question that. Would you, as a brass player, prefer to fill the show with ten solid minutes of music, or would you prefer 6 minutes of music and 6 minutes of dance? Again, I am guessing here, a majority would take the ten minutes.

(Unless, of course, the dance is gonna get them laid... )

Except, the shows design no longer allows for that, does it?

That, I suspect, is where the complaints arise. Rather than a show filled with fully-fleshed songs played by highly skilled brass players, you get random blasts filled with unnecessary movement (yes, an over-simplified opinion; hoping to forestall some nimrod tooting "that's just your opinion!". Of course it is, dingo).

I greatly admire today's guard; graceful, gorgeous, stunningly athletic. I dislike seeing a prancing hornline that could instead be blowing the stands down - y'know, the way things used to be, right? ha!

I can understand your point of view, but let me ask you this. With the growth of the modern front ensemble, is it fair to relegate them to accompanying 10 minutes of brass music? If so, then why bother having them out there? Mellophones get featured. Tubas and low brass get featured. Trumpets get featured. The battery gets featured. Why not the front?

What would you have the hornline do visually during time that you feature the front ensemble? Does it really matter if they put the horn down? If they can find a way to support the music visually through body movement instead of drill, does it really matter?

Also, please name a show in which the brass really only plays for 6 minutes, or puts the horns down and dances for 6 minutes. Even "back in the day" no single horn line member had 10 solid minutes of music. There were always breaks in the show for the drums, or moments when smaller sections would play etc.

I'm not trying to educate you or invalidate your opinion. Just asking questions. If its really all about brass and only brass for you, then you have a legitimate reason not to like the product on the field.

[RockyGranite]

I am of two minds here.

1. I like shows in which the Corps, as a whole, play complete...or as near as possible...pieces of music. I don't like snippets.

2. I like shows in which everything...from the music, the drill, to the guard...applies to and enhances the theme. I don't like JABOM/M.

If a Corps can satisfy both of these desires, I don't care how they do it...whether it involves a lot of horn line dancing or not. This year, there were a few shows that featured much horn line dancing that met my desires. Jersey Surf's show comes readily to mind.

Now, I don't have the benefits of knowledge...or the biases...of those who grew up with Drum Corps, so to speak, but all-in-all, I'd have to say that I don't fear or dislike change. I embrace it.

[JonW]

For me, yes, it is all about brass and percussion. The "Drum & Bugle" side of life - the visual has, and always will be, secondary to the music when referencing the musicians involved. I acknowledge that "that's not the way it is anymore", but in responding to the original question, that is where my answer lies.

No reason at all that the front ensemble shouldn't have a feature too - like you listed, all other sections get a part. Grounding of the pit was a great idea; saves wear on the members, allows for additional sounds and specials effects to be used more effectively, adds a great deal of 'sizzle' to a show. I don't think they intended to have 12 marimbas and xylos out front when this idea was passed though.

As said in my previous post, I suspect it is within the growth of the pit and requiring* it to have a dominant voice that subsequently removed passages previously given to brass that in turn created the: "now what do we do with the brass?" "Ahh, make 'em strut and roll around a bit over here".

*"All that hardware out front cost double what the hornline did - it needs more tossed it's way!"

Numbers and measurements in time are not exact, and no where did I refer to "a single member" having ten minutes of stuff. I also accounted for drum breaks/solos - I honestly did not expect clarification would be required...

Merely attempting to explain why some former members could be miffed at the rise in choreography.

This is all clearly dredged solely from the sludge of one old mudpit - could be all hogwash, could actually have some truth to it. No problem either way.

[jasgre2000]

Not speaking for anyone but myself here and fairly certain attempts to 'educate' me will follow, but...

Yes, aspects of dance can be found in corps performances dating well back into the late 60s, early 70s, primarily done within rifle units. Guard also incorporated dance in segments of the show too. A little harder to find in the earlier years, but there was some body movement within horn lines and percussion units, but nothing any where near as dramatic as what is currently being done.

Sooo, you are correct - it is nothing 'new' to the drum corps scene.

I don't believe you will find many complaints towards what the guard is doing - There are some truly remarkable performances on display. Drummers have always been showmen (showboats? hehe) and love throwing some razzle in with the dazzle... exaggerated gestures are part of that. Where I suspect most of the animosity originates is when the brass actually puts down the horn and flops around on the field. That runs counter to not only decades of training, but also the desire to blow throughout the show. Sure, we had drum breaks (some really good ones that actually lead to the next song [different topic, different thread]), but the horns played for a good ten minutes of each show!

Now, with the infusion of extended dance sequences (including brass), something needed to be sacrificed to accommodate it - unfortunately, that something is the music - primarily brass. I'm guessing that goes hand-in-hand with the growth of the pit - a large chunk of the score has been passed to the pit, creating left over space for the brass to flop around.

There are countless posts detailing how the current members are all better trained, etc, and that this is needed to keep them interested. I gotta question that. Would you, as a brass player, prefer to fill the show with ten solid minutes of music, or would you prefer 6 minutes of music and 6 minutes of dance? Again, I am guessing here, a majority would take the ten minutes.

(Unless, of course, the dance is gonna get them laid... )

Except, the shows design no longer allows for that, does it?

That, I suspect, is where the complaints arise. Rather than a show filled with fully-fleshed songs played by highly skilled brass players, you get random blasts filled with unnecessary movement (yes, an over-simplified opinion; hoping to forestall some nimrod tooting "that's just your opinion!". Of course it is, dingo).

I greatly admire today's guard; graceful, gorgeous, stunningly athletic. I dislike seeing a prancing hornline that could instead be blowing the stands down - y'know, the way things used to be, right? ha!

In '84, SCV had dancing brass (without playing). Same with The Cadets in 1989 (and I think Star as well). Maybe you are considering the 80s recent drum corps?

[JonW]

In '84, SCV had dancing brass (without playing). Same with The Cadets in 1989 (and I think Star as well). Maybe you are considering the 80s recent drum corps?

Huh? You lost me there...

[MikeD]

With that said, I don't understand why some suggest that it is a new thing. SCV did it as early as 1984 and The Cadets did it a few years later ... I think several corps did it in 1989. Does anyone know when the first instance of it occurred?

Here is a photo from our 1971 "America, the Brave" show. The lower brass did a minuet to represent the Hessians at Trenton while the sopranos did a hoedown.

Edited August 20, 2012 by MikeD

[CLD]

I'm kinda "meh" about dancing when it takes the brass out of play. I'd much rather see them "blowing the stands down" while running a crazy a** drill. Doing some vizh stuff while playing is fine, but don't ever put the horns down.

And regarding the other comment: With all due respect to the front ensemble (gonna get some hate here) - I truly feel that they are there to COMPLIMENT the sounds coming from the field not to replace what the brass and battery should be doing. After all, it IS drum and bugle corps, not drum and marimba corps.