What happens next?

[glory]

It is. One corps in particular has a bad rep, but being good friends with a former show sponsor, he always said 95% of the drama came from big name corps...demands, behavior/trash etc. The other 5 came from neighbors of the school not ready for the noise since it was summerand the band hadn't started yet. I'm amazed when I see how far away people are staying for Allentown now....yet several awesome fqacilities right there sit unused. Why? people abused their priviledges and the facility

The real reason why many schools won't house corps isn't because of infamous behavior and large-scale destruction. It's far more pedestrian. It's because the band director or whomever doesn't have sufficient political capital to offset the perceived inconvenience to school staff and neighbors.

Yes, there are cases of damage (most absolutely accidental). More likely is neighbors complaining to police and principal about the "noise." Coaches who didn't learn how to share. Custodians who counted on less work. Teachers whose plans were interrupted. Landscapers who have a schedule.

These lesser inconveniences are the real obstacle when the band director pitches for a day or two next summer. The rejection might not focus on those directly, however. It ends the discussion more efficiently to cite the "trash" or the "damage" or of course the "liability."

There was a time when our schools like our society were more forgiving, accepting and more prone to help by saying "yes." Today the reflex is for "no" not so much because corps are disrespectful to their host schools but because schools and the people in them would prefer not to bother.

I've seen many a corps on tour. That's reality they're confronting now.

HH

Edited December 4, 2012 by glory

[rockinbrass]

This type of bullying does not surprise me. Just remember, if you marched prior to 2010, you did not march with a G7 corps.

Not true. Some of us(marching members) knew that all of this was coming down the pipeline as early as 2008 (in very clear details) due to conversations with admins of the corps.

[skywhopper]

You understand that the corps in question have legitimate concerns and legitimate ideas to secure a stronger future not just for their own corps but for all corps

What are these ideas? What I've seen of their ideas amounts to increasing pay for the top corps (that's them) and decreasing it for lower-tier corps. Or increasing their power over DCI's decision making and reducing it for others.

Any other ideas they have about show structure, online streaming, live theater shows, tour length, etc, seem like things that could be safely argued in a public forum, but I haven't heard any ideas of that sort. The extra features in the 2011 ToC shows were pretty much a dud IMO. I didn't see the 2012 shows, but IIRC those things were scaled back a bit.

So what are the legitimate ideas and concerns? Have they been enumerated somewhere?

[JimF-LowBari]

Today the reflex is for "no" not so much because corps are disrespectful to their host schools but because schools and the people in them would prefer not to bother.

Never dealt with hosting a corps so not discussing that part. But will say that many school districts are in a budget bind and have seen many school board elections won by the person screaming "I'll cut costs" the most. So imagine the perceived outrage when outsiders (IOW - non-school taxpayers) are using the property that is being maintained by locals $$$$$$. And it WILL come up in the next election.

Edited December 4, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[perc2100]

I think the G7 are probably technically operating within the letter of the existing rules (which, alas, we don't know--but if the DCI by-laws are anything like the performance rules, they are probably vague and self-contradictory). Obviously they can run shorter seasons and perform at alternative events--most corps do so, though rarely if ever at alternative competitive events. So putting on their own series of other shows is not something directly actionable in itself.

And there you go: nothing against the rules with putting on their own series of shows.

As for starving the other corps and DCI of revenue, there is no way that's not happening--the presence of the G7 at a special six-show series all of their own means that they'll be taking ticket sales from other nearby shows where the top corps were last year's 7th, 9th, and 10th place corps

Taking a quick glance at the 2012 schedule, the Music in Motion shows do not conflict with any other DCI-sanctioned shows in the same state: i.e. it's not like there is a MiM show in Eerie Penn,conflicting with a DCI show in Philly. To me it doesn't look like there are any major conflicts, meaning your argument is fine in theory but doesn't hold water in reality of the 2012 DCI schedule.

The more shows the G7 organize for themselves, the more non-G7 shows will struggle to net any income for their organizers, and the more shows that will not come back in future years, meaning fewer opportunities for the non-G7 corps in future years.

And it comes back to more speculation...

So, why doesn't DCI blackball the MIMPA shows and not admit they are happening? I have no idea. Maybe they are afraid of what the G7 will do in retribution. In the near term, looking at just 2013, kicking out the G7, even if it were politically possible, would make DCI and the non-G7 corps much worse off than just going along with these gradual moves by the G7 to gather more of the revenue for themselves.

Exactly: the G7 need DCI as much as DCI needs them. That's why I (still) think that the Music in Motion will not lead to anyone leading DCI. That might be some grandiose dream, but if I had to bet money on it I would say that maybe the MiM thing will take off in the sense that there will be good ideas emerge from the event that DCI will adopt, the MiM corps will get to keep their extra revenue, but in the end BD, SCV, Cadets, etc. will still be DCI corps.

The G7 have plans to have their own theater event, their own online streaming service, and their own video and audio products coming out of this new series. How can that not threaten DCI's revenue stream? And yet, kicking them out might make things so ugly in the next year or two that DCI would fall apart completely.

Because I think the bulk of the people will likely still purchase DCI Finals merchandise. The corps will still be part of the Fan Network streams/archives, they will still be on the DVD's/Blu-rays at the end of the year, DCI will continue to sell archival performances (like the Champions Blu-ray compilation, which will lead to several more volumes of BD, Cadets, Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and SCV performances, among others). If I had to guess, I would bet the majority of people who buy the Music in Motion stuff will ALSO buy DCI stuff. Obviously I'm speculating as well, but the average Blue Devils, Cadets, SCV, etc. fan are general drum corps fans, and the allure of DCI Finals performances (with the inevitable changes in shows that go along with Finals week, the 'maxing out' of performances, etc) is still enticing.

So hopefully that makes it clear what I mean that the G7 are trading off the unwillingness of DCI and the non-G7 corps to play hardball. The fact that the G7 have sufficient power to bully the rest of DCI does not mean they are doing the right thing, or what's best for DCI or even themselves in the long term.

This is definitely a precarious position, for sure, but it takes two sides of the position to work: without DCI Board's seemingly tacit approval, this wouldn't be able to fly.

It's weird, because even though I'm clearly the argumentative type, I'm also typically a pessimist (coming from Cleveland, and moving to San Diego will do that do ya, I guess ). It's weird that I approach this situation with the "glass half full" mindset. I agree with most that if the Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, SCV, Phantom Regiment, Crown, and Bluecoats leave DCI completely it would be horrible for all. Maybe it's because I've heard Hopkins threaten to leave DCI now for multiple decades (I remember him talking of leaving DCI to do a more experimental-type production as far back as the mid-90's, possibly because of Star's success with Canadian Brass), but I think it's more likely that at worst the G7 will do their own thing AND still participate within DCI. I also think that some of their ideas will be awful and not work out, but some of them will be awesome and will be mainstreamed into DCI's model. I think that their cavalier attitude and rhetoric (being fairly explicit about lower-achieving corps having little/nothing to offer the activity, for example) is horrible, reprehensible, and is the cause of more ire by fans on here than any of their concrete plans. I think had they presented this a completely different way from day 1 they went to the DCI Board, this would've been gone over a whole lot better with fans (and DCI directors). That's unfortunate, and it will take A LOT for them to win some fans back. But just because they made a horrible mistake does not mean some of their ideas aren't good and might actually just benefit ALL of us fans as well. Only time will tell, and I will certainly have a different attitude if the day comes that they do leave DCI: for now, though, I choose to have more of a wait-and-see/this could be cool attitude.

[perc2100]

I agree, so how should DCI deal with a group of corps that are trying to operate by different rules to maximize their own revenue at the expense of everyone else while maintaining all the benefits of being part of DCI?

Well, 1st of all I don't think what they're doing is necessarily going to be a detriment to others (other than in a "gee I wish we could do that too" way). There are other shows the night of many of the MiM shows but they are typically far enough away to not 'force' fans to choose one or the other. I think that MiM corps will be smart enough to produce products that are different from the DCI produced products, in order to not compete against a product they likely will lose out on. For example, who wants to pay money for a field show from late July/early August when they can buy the Finals shows: worst case scenario, I think, would be the MiM have lower pricing which might force DCI to lower their prices.

But, back to your question, if I'm reading your correctly (minus the rhetoric): how can DCI and MiM coexist?

Fairly simple, I think: the way things look for 2013 = that way we can all live happily ever after (assuming the MiM shows make money). The MiM corps can continue to produce their own independent shows, which hopefully offer different things than the standard DCI show (the instant encore thing seems like a cool idea, for example). They perhaps produce their own videos of the extra stuff, like the encore performances, stand stills, solo & ensembles, warm-ups, etc. Perhaps they do their own subscription service over the summer (like what BD and Cadets already do) that give fans more product. Meanwhile, DCI continues to focus on their big Regional shows and Championships, produce their own content, etc. Both groups offer awesome stuff to us fans, both groups help each other make money (MiM continue to keep their "drum corps elite" profile in order to generate interest for their separate ventures while making money on the side; DCI continues to make money with BD, Cadets, Cavaliers, etc. still performing at shows), they all coexist. I think that's the outcome in a perfect world.

[perc2100]

Has there been mention of looking out for ALL corps from these organizations?

Honest question.

I think yes, albeit in a manner that fans and directors likely did not appreciate (and one that I'm not sure I like either to be honest). Their original proposal focused on large, broad change across all tiers of junior corps. However it marginalized less-achieving corps, especially Open Class and corps below the then-Semifinalists (under 17th place). They wanted to make the OC and lowest WC corps a strictly regional & weekend corps (which would have perceived financial implications as it would limit touring), place the lower-placing finalists & semi-finalists in weekday shows with occasional weekend shows (don't remember exact breakdown), and then have 'super finalists' of the top 7 corps. With the sound rejection of that, I assume the directors then focused just on their own side of the equation (the 'super finalist' top 7 eventual MiM).

But from the onset this was about activity-wide change, not just "us first."

[Jeff Ream]

You understand that the corps in question have legitimate concerns and legitimate ideas to secure a stronger future not just for their own corps but for all corps and that worth while discussions need to be had about some of the hard facts about the activity.

I mean we understand that we're not dealing with wall street banks here... they are non-profit drum corps...

not to be totally contrarian, but you do realize the guys with the concerns are the guys who put DCI into the shape it's in right? However, if they are looking to securing certains hows just for them and excluding the other 30+ corps in DCI's fold, I'm sorry, I don't buy that they are looking for ways to make things better for all corps. I see them looking to make things better for 7 corps

Edited December 4, 2012 by Jeff Ream

[Jeff Ream]

Careful out there making opinions. If your profile says you marched a G7 corps like I did, and you disagree with the G7 like I do, there are a few members that are going to post your profile to try and make you look bad.

I guess people have always agree with the corps they marched.

I guess all you Cadets out there that have disagreed with George over the years are doing something wrong.

you will be assimilated

:tongue:/>

[perc2100]

Okay, then, please share. All I remember regarding "all corps" are proposals to dilute their voting power, decrease their pay and limit their access to shows. How is that a "stronger future"?

I think one could argue that corps that seem to struggle annually could benefit from less/regional touring. Certainly the multitude of corps struggling financially, some of whom could not finish their tour due to financial downfalls, could stand to cut their costs and travel less.

A counter-argument for that would likely be that several corps struggling last year were Open Class, who tour less frequently anyway. Also, with this plan in mind, DCI would have to possibly completely retool their tour schedule which would create different problems.

I'm not saying the idea is perfect, or even doable, but I do think it's possible that their original idea/intent might've been for the benefit of all. Maybe it's kind of like when a politician who is a multi-million, and has been most of his adult life, comes up with ideas that they might think would benefit lower-class but in reality they are so out of touch they don't know what they're doing/suggesting is potentially offensive, if downright wrong.