TOC/G7 Related Discussion

[Stu]

I think we can grow the audience. but i think doing it Dan's way will kill off the diehards

Nobody can argue, unless they are obtuse, that the audience, whether WGI or DCI, consists of a very high percentage of family-friends of current performers, future wanna-bee performers, and former performers. Therefore, it would seem logical that audience numbers would grow proportional to the number of new units performing within those sanctioning bodies. To that end, the way to get more butts in the seats is 'not' to shrink DCI to just the self-proclaimed elite 7 or just those few who D-Ray claims to be the best and market them to an already uninterested general public, but to get more audience in the stands DCI should actually follow the lead of WGI and attempt to get more units, not less, involved... which in turn gets more performers involved... which in turn gets more family-friends, more wanna-bees, and more former performers packed into the stands.

[Slingerland]

To that end, the way to get more butts in the seats is 'not' to shrink DCI to just the self-proclaimed elite 7 or just those few who D-Ray claims to be the best and market them to an already uninterested general public, but to get more audience in the stands DCI should actually follow the lead of WGI and attempt to get more units, not less, involved... which in turn gets more performers involved... which in turn gets more family-friends, more wanna-bees, and more former performers packed into the stands.

So go start a drum corps .Go start a bunch of them. Do that, and you'll have thousands and thousands of new fans. Your premise, which is sound, in some ways, is based on a belief that more drum corps of every stripe is what will grow the audience back to being in the millions.

The only problem is that the moment your premise runs into reality, it crumbles. Sure, if there were 300 drum corps, with 40 of them being so good that they were threats to win nationals in any given year, you would likely have more people in the stands. But there isn't the interest or the capital out there to create and grow those additional 260 drum corps to get to that level.

But drum corps isn't like WGI guard. One tuba costs as much or more than a floor covering. The economies of equipment expense are so different as to make trying to compare the costs of startup and operation an exercise in absurdity.

Ok, so scale it back. Let's say the goal is 100 drum corps instead of 300. That's surely more achievable, right?

How many Open Class corps are still struggling to come up with anything near a 50 man horn line? How many mid-level World Class corps are entering June still looking to pick up 10 or 12 more guard members? If we're having a hard time filling the ranks of the existing corps, what evidence is there that creating more opportunities for marching would do anything to boost the participation level, when there are existing participation opportunities that go untaken?

DCI is, in some ways, a victim of their own success. Because it's been so effective about showcasing how excellent the product can be to those who are already easily reached, it's unintentionally damaged the marketability of others who want to compete, but who don't have the talents or resources of those corps at the top of the activity. Kids are so used to the idea of DCI being "the best" in marching arts, that they're not that interested in participating at a "good" level, even if doing so is cheaper and easier than marching in a top corps.

More participants, sure. But people who believe that you can automatically grow the number of participants without first doing a better job of selling the corps that we already have are the drum corps equivalents of South Park's underwear gnomes.

1. Say that we need more drum corps

2. ?????

3. Millions of new drum corps fans!!!

Step 2 is the hard part, because it's the part where you need to go out and find millions of new dollars to support the expansion. It's also the part where you focus on doing the kind of concentrated work that eventually DOES create a wider base of audience knowledge of what drum corps can be, and increase the likelihood that others who see the thing will want to get into the game. The World's Series increases overall interest in baseball by showcasing the best teams. Little League and Pony League and minor league baseball reap a benefit from that exposure. But you have to create the interest first, and the time-honored path there includes doing a better job of promoting and producing the best of what you've got to offer.

If we want to talk about possible rules changes that would encourage a wider variety of competitive results, then I'm right there with ya. If we want to talk about changes to make the programming more fun to mainstream audiences, yup, put me down for ten bucks. But believing that the way to long term growth involves muting the message when it comes to the most impressive products the activity has, I'm gettin' out at that stop. There's no science or history to support the notion.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Slingerland

[Stu]

So go start a drum corps .Go start a bunch of them. Do that, and you'll have thousands and thousands of new fans. Your premise, which is sound, in some ways, is based on a belief that more drum corps of every stripe is what will grow the audience back to being in the millions.

The only problem is that the moment your premise runs into reality, it crumbles. Sure, if there were 300 drum corps, with 40 of them being so good that they were threats to win nationals in any given year, you would likely have more people in the stands. But there isn't the interest or the capital out there to create and grow those additional 260 drum corps to get to that level. If you ever showed a potential start-up corps Board of Directors how much it costs to play the game even at a local level, they'd throw up their hands and say "forget it, we'll start a bowling league instead."

Ok, so scale it back. Let's say the goal is 100 drum corps instead of 200. That's surely more achievable, right?

How many Open Class corps are still struggling to come up with anything near a 50 man horn line? How many mid-level World Class corps are entering June still looking to pick up 10 or 12 more guard members? If we're having a hard time filling the ranks of the existing corps, what evidence is there that creating more opportunities for marching would do anything to boost the participation level, when there are existing participation opportunities that go untaken?

DCI is, in some ways, a victim of their own success. Because it's been so effective about showcasing how excellent the product can be to those who are already easily reached, it's unintentionally damaged the marketability of others who want to compete, but who don't have the talents or resources of those corps at the top of the activity. Kids are so used to the idea of DCI being "the best" in marching arts, that they're not that interested in participating at a "good" level, even if doing so is cheaper and easier than marching in a top corps.

More participants, sure. But people who believe that you can automatically grow the number of participants without first doing a better job of selling the corps that we already have are the drum corps equivalents of South Park's underwear gnomes.

1. Say that we need more drum corps

2. ?????

3. Millions of new drum corps fans!!!

Step 2 is the hard part, because it's the part where you need to go out and find millions of new dollars to support the expansion. It's also the part where you focus on doing the kind of concentrated work that eventually DOES create a wider base of audience knowledge of what drum corps can be, and increase the likelihood that others who see the thing will want to get into the game. The World's Series increases overall interest in baseball by showcasing the best teams. Little League and Pony League and minor league baseball reap a benefit from that exposure. But you have to create the interest first, and the time-honored path there includes doing a better job of promoting and producing the best of what you've got to offer.

If we want to talk about possible rules changes that would encourage a wider variety of competitive results, then I'm right there with ya. If we want to talk about changes to make the programming more fun to mainstream audiences, yup, put me down for ten bucks. But believing that the way to long term growth involves muting the message when it comes to the most impressive products the activity has, I'm gettin' out at that stop. There's no science or history to support the notion.

Very simple response to your very convoluted posting: The percentage of those who purchase tickets and sit in the audience at both DCI and WGI events are overwhelmingly associated with, or have been associated with at some capacity, performers and units on the field or floor. Very few in attendance, I mean so few that they could probably fit into a single Starbucks restaurant, have never had any association with any unit at all. To believe otherwise is quite frankly again being obtuse; period. Moreover, the combined audience of all the DCI, WGI, DCA, DCE, BOA, TOB, Blast, etc... performances from around the world who are in attendance to see the best groups, without having any association with a performer or unit which participates in competition, flat pales in comparison to the audiences who attend just a single performance of U2 or a single performance of Madonna (I mean how many in the audience at a U2 concert have performed with them on stage or have a kid performing with them on stage compared to the audience at a DCI or WGI show who have been associated with a DCI or WGI unit?). And to think that DCI and WGI will ever be of real entertainment interest to anyone in the general public outside of our little, yes, very little niche is quite frankly delusional.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Stu

[Jeff Ream]

I'm not suggesting new corps need to be started...we all know how hard and expensive that is. I think using things like DrumBattle and Sound Sport can help. I think if possible, corps could do more locally to build up the name recognition. I think shows being a little more accessible to all can help.

I obviously don't have the answers. But I think if DCi looks back at all of the changes made in the last 15 years, see what really worked and didn't, maybe it's ok to go back in time in a few areas.....and see some positive results.

[BRASSO]

The World's Series increases overall interest in baseball by showcasing the best teams.

Major League Baseball does reasonably well because there is parity in the World Series participation,... not because " it showcases the best teams ". Major League Baseball... as would other Pro and College sports... would likewise atrophy in attractiveness and in generating fan interest if the same 2 or 3 teams were in the World Series or Championship 80% of the time for the last 35 years. That gets lame to outsiders looking to find something where huge upsets happen from year to year. Fans want " hope " above all else for " their team ". THATS what generates fan growth. If the landscape environment is such that out of 28-30 teams, only 2 or 3 most years have a real chance of winning the title, then that is not an environment ripe for fan growth, no matter if the targeted audience for its product are the Music Degreed or those that are perpetual mouthbreathers that can't help drooling on themselves.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BRASSO

[Stu]

... The World's Series increases overall interest in baseball by showcasing the best teams. Little League and Pony League and minor league baseball reap a benefit from that exposure. But you have to create the interest first, and the time-honored path there includes doing a better job of promoting and producing the best of what you've got to offer.

And..... DCI WC Finals showcases the best youth marching units in the world; they have done that for over forty years!!! Finals have been broadcast on PBS as well as ESPN2, and the best units have been showcased in the theaters around the entire United States!!!! And if none of that has been able to create much interest within the general public then no marketing and promoting campaign will change their tastes in entertainment!!!

[BRASSO]

And..... DCI WC Finals showcases the best youth marching units in the world; they have done that for over forty years!!! Finals have been broadcast on PBS as well as ESPN2, and the best units have been showcased in the theaters around the entire United States!!!! And if none of that has been able to create much interest within the general public then no marketing and promoting campaign will change their tastes in entertainment!!!

There was interest in broadcasting the DCI championships live. It was done for decades as a matter of fact. It was never a hot item, of course. But there was sufficient interest among the public at large for the show to be underwritten and shown each year live. Marching Band competition generates little to no general public interest now either. It never has. None of its Marching Band Championships Finals have been on live TV either. But Drum Corps CHampionships WERE once on Coast to Coast National TV feeds live. For decades. All the way up to Canada too.

Then it all changed. Corps died out... their fans left. The product changed. The typical marcher profile changed. The product became " better ", but not " more appealing ". As such, interest waned to the point that it could not find a home for its Finals on live ( or taped delay ) TV. We are now faced with the neccessary introspection as to where and why it went so wrong, and what do we need to do to salvage what remains and turn it around so that it DOES grow more fans willing to support it, and perhaps get back someday where its Finals is broadcast live to the world at large via TV. Its not like we don't have as many TV stations as there were in the 70's and 80's. We've got LOTS more TV stations now. But we have to ask ourselves why none of them are interested. Then once we determine that, we go from there to change the marketability of the product from how its currently constituted. Or we continue on the path to extinction. Those are the choices as I see it anyway.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BRASSO

[Stu]

I'm not suggesting new corps need to be started...we all know how hard and expensive that is. I think using things like DrumBattle and Sound Sport can help. I think if possible, corps could do more locally to build up the name recognition. I think shows being a little more accessible to all can help.

I obviously don't have the answers. But I think if DCi looks back at all of the changes made in the last 15 years, see what really worked and didn't, maybe it's ok to go back in time in a few areas.....and see some positive results.

Jeff: WGI has a large number of divisions (and DCI is sort of getting into that vein with SS and DB). Sure the cost to start up and build a nationally touring DCI corps is certainly overwhelming; but using WGI as an example, the more units and performers involved in DCI (WC, OC, SS, DB), the more family, friends, former performers, etc... will be in attendance. In fact where DCI is going to lose audience in a big way is at some point those in the stands who marched Suncoast, 27th, Sky, Knights, Avant Guard, Guardsmen, et al will die out and the DCI pool of potential audience members drawn from performing units will drastically shrink due to so few corps producing former performers becoming replacement audience members. And since this activity mainly has those who have been associated with a corps in some way sitting in the stands, fewer corps now will directly yield fewer future audience members.

[Stu]

... But there was sufficient interest among the public at large for the show to be underwritten and shown each year live.

No there was not; PBS dropped DCI because there was not enough underwriting (and viewer donation) interest; and ESPN2 dropped DCI because there was not enough advertising interest.

[Stu]

Then it all changed. Corps died out... their fans left. The product changed. The typical marcher profile changed. The product became " better ", but not " more appealing ".

This I completely agree with; and it shows that the 'audience' always has been, and always will be, mainly drawn from family, friends, and former performers. Ergo... fewer corps, even if some became better, thus yielded fewer people going into the stands. As the number of participating corps and performers decreased so went the numbers interested in going from the field into the audience.