Drum corps

[GUARDLING]

Thanks for taking the time to address my post. I have been a member and a fan of Drum Corps since viewing my first DCI show back in 1977 and have participated in or seen at least a couple of shows every year since so the history lesson was not needed. As a matter of fact I heard booing at my very first show and many times since.... but certainly not the scale that we are seeing today. I am well aware that these issues have been discussed here and have been around for decades. Does that mean that we should stop talking about them . Absolutely not. The examples I used to illustrate demand were very basic ..... I thought that would be obvious. They were intended as a means to further discussion and not as specific items demanding immediate attention. Two years ago on DCP someone introduced a topic entitled "Demand means nothing". Pages and pages and pages later nothing was resolved so here we are again asking the same questions about the judging system, what constitutes demand and how to award those corps that push themselves. I don't have the answers to what I see as fundamental problems in the current judging system and unfortunately I am beginning to think that no one does.

you could be right ( your last line ) I knew you weren't talking specifics , I also was just trying to address the complexity of ( harder ) and what that may mean.

News groups, social meadia etc etc will never solve any problem, ( although there are some who think they are heard or at least taken seriously )

Every year brings new people and others aging within the activity so I imagine many of the same questions will continue to come up every year. Many of these questions have been asked for decades. Even BITD.

[N.E. Brigand]

Disagree. If you drop a piece of equipment you should be deducted. There is nothing subjective about dropping. Either you did or didn't.

In BD's delightful 2008 show, there is a moment where the guard members all move as if they're about to throw their equipment, then simultaneously drop them, on purpose. :tongue:/>

Edited June 26, 2013 by N.E. Brigand

[bluesman]

By and large, we have these already!

It's why you see groups like Blue Devils on top.

Watch their show(s) again. Very rarely do you hear BD with pulse control problems by mid-season, if even that late. Now, keep that in mind as the sections go flying across the field, and the trumpets enter from behind the back hash and line up with the mellophones over mid-field on side two and the drum line who is in front of the front hash. We want our drum corps to be in time-- so when you see a drum corps keeping in time between the 35's, with the drumline centered behind them, and you see a group like BD or Crown achieving better results with outrageous staging and field coverage (last year's ballad from Crown illustrates the idea of this demand) , the judges will give the better overall number to the group with both CONTENT and ACHIEVEMENT.

Tons of people can tell what great ACHIEVEMENT looks like-- anyone who's marched knows in time, in tune, and etc.

But great CONTENT-- that requires both an ear/eye for what "works" in the moment, and also what is ultimately a more difficult/impressive effect. It's why we want vetted judges who have tons of experience.

Example, from this year: form control, which is a visual ensemble concern--

Blue Devils have multiple spots when they are running and marching through much-hated "scatter drill" moments and picking out big blocks and curved forms out of nowhere. Often these target sets of clarity are on the move themselves. Their paths likely will change from rep to rep with some of these moments. They still achieve these target forms and transformations with small but noticeable errors.

While Crown has plenty of moments of truly high demand, rarely (if ever) is this quasi improv-path approach necessary. Often it is regular, 90's-00's picture-to-picture drill, if a little sped up. Many of their impacts are merely halts with added body. They hit their forms with (again) small but noticeable errors. Who do we put ahead???

The judging community, achievement being equal, will ultimately reward the group with more challenging and effective content. It's why we see many of the results we do.

In my reply to this topic I very intentionally did not mention the name of a corps. When that is done on DCP it tends to bring out animosities towards certain corps and deflects from the topic at hand. The examples of demand I used were basic and have been around since before the existence of Carolina Crown and were absolutely not intended as a jab at the accomplishments of the Blue Devils. God knows we don't need yet another back and forth in the never ending Crown vs. BD debate. It just seems to me that what constitutes demand is more blurred now than at any point in DCI history. Rules changes, instrumentation changes, and sampling have left more and more of what we see on the field almost impossible to judge. Fan frustration with the system currently in place is getting worse. I say this as a fan and as a former drum corps member.

Edited June 26, 2013 by bluesman

[GUARDLING]

In my reply to this topic I very intentionally did not mention the name of a corps. When that is done on DCP it tends to bring out animosities towards certain corps and deflects from the topic at hand. The examples of demand I used were basic and have been around since before the existence of Carolina Crown and were absolutely not intended as a jab at the accomplishments of the Blue Devils. God knows we don't need yet another back and forth in the never ending Crown vs. BD debate. It just seems to me that what constitutes demand is more blurred now than at any point in DCI history. Rules changes, instrumentation changes, and sampling have left more and more of what we see on the field almost impossible to judge. Fan frustration with the system currently in place is getting worse. I say this as a fan and as a former drum corps member.

I also marched BITD ( just happen to still teach ) BUT....I think we were lead to believe how error driven it was back then..it was just as subjective..the old tic system was a nightmare ..much worse than today....I dont want to speak for anyone else but i think most who have experienced both might agree that system was not what it appeared to be and a total cluster XXXX ...i dont disagree at all with some of what you are saying just dont believe it was any better BITD..I know that doesnt solve anything now :satisfied:/>

Edited June 26, 2013 by GUARDLING