Drum corps

[84BDsop]

Any activity more subjective??

Try refereeing a foil or sabre bout when the high-level refs keep changing the definition of an attack...and whatever they decide on STILL doesn't match the written rules....urgh.

Irritating as a fencer AND a coach.

[bluesman]

I completely agree with your analysis here Hockeydad. Drum Corps is supposed to a competitive activity and not simply an artistic endeavor. There has to be some basic standard on which it can be said that running backward in and out of form while playing is given more scoring credit than scatter or follow the leader drills. In figure skating the competitors know that if they perform a triple axel to perfection and their competitors perform an easier triple sachow to perfection that they will receive a better score due to increased demand and not because of a judges personal preference of music, costume or concept. IMO DCI is starting to look more like the race for Best Picture at the Oscars with no adherence to any objective set of standards that the fans can see.

Edited June 25, 2013 by bluesman

[GUARDLING]

I completely agree with your analysis here. Drum Corps is supposed to a competitive activity and not simply an artistic endeavor. There has to be some basic standard on which it can be said that running backward in and out of form while playing is given more scoring credit than scatter or follow the leader drills. In figure skating the competitors know that if they perform a triple axel to perfection and their competitors performs an easier triple sachow to perfection that they will receive a better score due to increased demand and not because of a judges personal preference of music, costume or concept. IMO DCI is starting to look more like the race for Best Picture at the Oscars with no objective set of standards that the fans can see.

as shows became way more difficult in every aspect our activity became way more subjective BUT even BITD objectivity was just as subjective. maybe even moreso.the " I call it as I saw it which was a very popular phrase BITD wouldn't fly now without an in depth explanation...at least with a good judge

[skywhopper]

There are de-facto skills that corps must demonstrate, whether the list is on the sheets or not. Just look at how BD, Cadets, and Crown design their shows. Triple tounging brass feature, check. Ripple toss, check. Posturing battery feature, check. Those (among many other skills) are essentially compulsories.

[bluesman]

as shows became way more difficult in every aspect our activity became way more subjective BUT even BITD objectivity was just as subjective. maybe even moreso.the " I call it as I saw it which was a very popular phrase BITD wouldn't fly now without an in depth explanation...at least with a good judge

"Good judge" is a rather subjective term you don't you think? I think you made my point for me. We do need an in depth explanation of what constitutes true demand if for nothing else but than to make it clear to the designers what constitutes a less muddled path to upward movement within the ranks of the competitive activity.

Edited June 25, 2013 by bluesman

[N.E. Brigand]

I suppose it depends on whether you count other arts as "activities", and whether the awards given there are what you'd call "judging".

For instance, movies and the Oscars, recorded music and the Grammys, Broadway theater and the Tonys, etc.

[GUARDLING]

"Good judge" is a rather subjective term you don't you think? I think you made my point for me. We do need an in depth explanation of what constitutes true demand if for nothing else but than to make it clear to the designers what constitutes a less muddled path to upward movement within the ranks of the competitive activity.

yes " good Judge" is also subjective....that would depend on who you talk to. It's actually all been said. Educational videos, seminars, etc etc have been done for decades. Now how one interprets or how one feels on a subcaption of a subcaption etc etc becomes another story. That has been an argument in this activity older than DCI itself.

[BRASSO]

Seems like figure skating has been held up as the benchmark for non-objective judging. But I was thinking, even in figure skating, there are elements that all skaters perform or attempt to perform, and thereby give the judges something to which to compare the skaters to each other. Triple jump, double jump, and all that.

In drum corps there are NO elements in common. Nada. The judging sheets are chock full of serious looking scoring criteria, but it comes down to a simple beauty contest - what does the judge like better?

So you can fill a show with nonsensical scatter drill, no melody line, etc. As along as the design staff can sell the product to the judges, you're in !!!

I cannot think of any judged sport or other activity more completely devoid of objective scoring elements that a drum corps competition. I'm not talking about the criteria written on the score sheets, I'm talking about as implemented by the judges.

So....the complaining about scoring gets people all stirred up and is entertaining to read, but, I see little validity to placements. It's based on nothing and is totally subjective.

Agreed??

Absolutely. And DCI Drum Corps has "evolved" to the stage now that its more the adults ( show designers ) being judged by other adults ( judges ) who personally know one another. And have known one another in some cases for close to half a century now. The captions have " evolved " now too where if a Corps loses a show designer, it does not matter what MM talent is brought in, nor how much the show is cleaned and executed, it has no shot of winning or placing high. Years ago, Corps show designs were not as important as the sweat and hard work of the MM's at practice. And how well they performed. But those days are gone. The Cavaliers lost Michael Gaines 2 years ago. 1 guy. Just 1 show design guy. But he designed the Cavaliers Visual " house " So when they lost him at the end of 2011 season, their roof fell in for 2012, even though they had lots of vets returning, and lots of experienced MM's for the 2012 season ready to go. But as soon as they hit the field in June of last year, it was clear to all that their show design was a dog that would not hunt and could not be saved even if you imported in all the MM's of BD to perform it flawlessly.

Also, the tick system that used to be utilized in judged competition at least took tenths off for clearly observable mistakes obsereved in performance. It too was subjective and flawed as well. But the current build up system is even more subjective than the tic system because it gives arbitrary credit to dissimilar things in competition. I said it earler today in a post: we can bring in all the DCI judges that judge the GE Captions of one kind or another, and none of them would have the same description and definition as to what " General Effect " is, and some of the descriptions given would actually be at odds with one another. Thats the reality here. In essence we are asking judges to judge totally dissimilar show designs, music, visuals, etd. Thats basically impossible and so it really then comes down to personal tastes and how much you like or don't like the show designer's "art" work. Thats what mostly be judged today. Not as much the MM's as in previous eras. The reason we have so few placement shifts is because the show designers change so infrequently. Thousands of kids change spots in line in all the Corps after each year. They all work their butts off. But show designers have a pecking order in DCI and every judge knows that show designer's rep. So its the show designers that are being judged. Adults in judgement of other adults in their own small club where everyone knows one another and each's reputation. And the senior Judges are REALLY senior... some over 70 years old now. So yes, I say it comes down to what a judge's personal tastes in show design is.

Edited June 25, 2013 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

you are right about a few things....same ole same ole in the judging community has been a well protected problem.IMO there needs to be new blood ( not saying just young Blood just some new blood there.

AS far as the tic system YES it had its issues BUT IMO much worse than anything today. It was a nightmare of whos up and down and literally no accountablility from a judge to a corps. It was pompus and all to often " I'm the judge and i saw it as i called it " sorry not good enough !. All one has to do is look at scores from the past . You could get a 60 one night and an 80 a week later. No consistancy at all. YEs that made for an exciting show ( for the audience ) but was awful for corps trying to make heads or tails of what to do many times.

[BRASSO]

you are right about a few things....same ole same ole in the judging community has been a well protected problem.IMO there needs to be new blood ( not saying just young Blood just some new blood there.

AS far as the tic system YES it had its issues BUT IMO much worse than anything today. It was a nightmare of whos up and down and literally no accountablility from a judge to a corps. It was pompus and all to often " I'm the judge and i saw it as i called it " sorry not good enough !. All one has to do is look at scores from the past . You could get a 60 one night and an 80 a week later. No consistancy at all. YEs that made for an exciting show ( for the audience ) but was awful for corps trying to make heads or tails of what to do many times.

While the tic system was flawed, the build up system is equally as flawed. No system cvould probably adequately address the premise of asking judges to compare and contrast dissimilar things.

Its like 2 equally good artists bringing in each of their art work to be judged as to which is " the best " artwork of the 2. If you are one of the artists in the 2 person competition, and your art work was done from the Impressionism realm of art world and your competitor's art work is from the Surrealist art world realm, all you can do is hope that your judge's favorite artist is not Salvador Dali. If so, you are probably SOOL in that competition that day. On the other hand, if per chance your judge's favorite artist is Claude Monet, you just might be in luck that day afterall. This is essentially how I see DCI judged competition. It comes down to personal likes, and thats all part of all of our DNA biases that all human beings have. And yes, Judges are human beings too.

Edited June 25, 2013 by BRASSO