TOC needs a name change

[nysader]

Not Really. The suggestion that there was ONLY TWO possible stylistic options that Drum Corps could have taken over the last 50 years, ie the current incarnatiion or VFW style shows from the 50's & 60's of " Color Presentations while marking time " is just ridiculous, frankly. And your attempt to hijack this thread discussion on the TOC with a comparison of shows now and with those from the VFW years was frankly silly as well. The folks hanging out at the VFW these days have nothing at all to do with the G7 TOC shows and the G7's attempt of a coup and a power grab of DCI that was cooked up in clandestine fashion behind closed doors 2 years ago as some sort of self annointed Secret Society concocted within DCI. The G7 World Class Division institutionalized Slotting System created within DCI, with the imprimatur of DCI, is the here and now, and what we are discussing. The folks at the VFW, and the AL are no threat to DCI, and have no influence and impact on DCI and the Drum Corps activity whatsoever any more. You might want to put your dislike of previous eras Drum Corps behind, and fast forward from 40 yesrs ago Drum Corps, and change your perspective and focus on what is going on in the here and now. Thats what THIS particular thread is all about, ie the G7 created TOC shows. There is a historical side of DCP that focuses on the shows of today and the VFW shows of "the Color Presentatiions and the Mark Time". We don't mark time here re. the current topic of the G7 and its TOC. We move fast.

WELL said Brasso!!

[cixelsyd]

We could call it a Gathering x 7, or a Gaggle of Seven Corps, or maybe a Group of 7. There's got to be a shorter way to say that, though.

Yes, there must be some other idea that starts with a "G", and has a "7" in it, but is more concise.

[cixelsyd]

Where were these rules written down? The whole G7 thing was a business relationship set up between those 7 corps; it wasn't a DCI construct (and boy is that an understatement).

If anyone cares, the original 5 corps in the Combine and the original founding corps of DCI also weren't "the top 5 corps" or "the top 13 corps" from VFW or AL the season before. They were organizations that felt they had a shared set of objectives and wanted to band together to pursue them. So this kind of thing does have a precedent in the activity.

Since the Combine never persuaded VFW or AL to change a series of their own contests to exclude non-Combine corps, I fail to see how the events of 2013 follow the precedent.

[Plan9]

/>/> This thread topic is on the G7's created TOC and whether or not the name chosen for themselves is apt or not. Some of us could likewise hijack take this thread topic and begin a thread discussion on whether or not the national Coast to Coast National Touring model adopted by DCI contributed to the demise of so many corps as much as did amateur mechanics trying to fix a broken down bus 2,000 miles from their home city. But such a discusion of the DCI Natural Touring Model and its effects on the ultimate bankruptcy so many Corps is not the place on this particular thread topic, imo

It's possible that I'm wrong on this, and correct me if I am....but I believe you have made it abundantly clear that this vampire squid (you refer to as "G7") was born out of greed, self-preservation and disregard for the activity, historically speaking. I do agree that the TOC shows are a DCI response (perhaps reluctantly) to what was a suggestion by this group of directors to market the activity differently. To me, that’s all this is….a marketing effort peppered throughout the schedule in an effort to grow the audience by bundling the top corps. And let’s face it, these corps are the ones that get the most attention (with a very few exceptions like Madison).…right or wrong. And it is a different entertainment environment these days. Folks no longer mark their calendar for when the circus or fair is coming to town…so they can gather for entertainment. Today, they have immediate access in their living rooms. And that’s the competition in the world of outdoor events. But DCI has a big advantage in the area of “socialization” and many gather at these events as much for the interaction and sharing of their love of DC than just to see the corps.

About the name “TOC”….hmmmmm, let me think, here we are gathered to put together a name for a marketing effort…the goal of the name is to immediately create excitement and interest. Here are some candidate names:

- - Tour of a Bunch of Corps

- - Gathering of the Greedy

- - Tour of Some Winners and Some Not So Much

- - A Pretty Good Night of Drum Corps

- - Battle of the Bands

- - Dave and George’s Excellent Adventure

Or…….How about using a name that may be only “mostly” accurate but has a much better chance of generating the goal of the marketing effort?

[cixelsyd]

Guys - we can feel differently about the net impact of something regardless.

Exactly. The complex tradeoff of plusses and minuses involved whenever we divide the activity to showcase top corps to the exclusion of other corps is difficult to quantify, and therefore, each of our feelings on the matter must be at least partly in the realm of "opinion".

With that understood, you have stated your opinion here:

I feel it is good for the entire activity.

Now I will state mine.

Like I said above, there is a tradeoff every time we showcase top corps to the exclusion of other corps. Whether it is simply a prelim/final contest format, or a schedule of appearances in reverse order of prior contest results, or an event that segregates the top 8 of last year (or last week), or a "world class" separate from an "open class"... or, taken to the ultimate extreme, even having competitive results... all these actions have a certain degree of elitism in them. Elitism has a deleterious effect on the activity, discouraging participation at the lower levels (i.e. the levels being excluded) and eroding the size of the participant base.

Therefore, one must keep the above in mind when conducting a cost/benefit analysis of each of these ideas. For example, competition is a basic driver of fan and participant interest in the activity, and a key factor in the performance quality we see, so simply having competitive results is, IMO, well worth the cost. When it comes to all the other examples I gave above, all variations on contest formats and lineups, I imagine DCI and their participating corps have a fair amount of financial data they can analyze to forecast whether a given idea will generate a net benefit in dollars. I do not need to see these numbers; it is reasonable to assume that the decision makers act in their best interest, and therefore choose the options which appear to offer the best financial outcome.

What is interesting to note, however, is who the decision makers are (and therefore, whose "best interest" is really being served). Decisions in DCI are not made by all of the participating corps. Usually, they are not even made by all of the world class corps, as there are often a couple of WC corps who do not have full voting rights. Further, via the political processes of the representative BOD and this separate group of 7 corps issuing their own agendae periodically, the decision making power is concentrated in even fewer hands, and leans toward serving the best interests of even fewer corps.

So, in my opinion, I suspect that DCI has determined a net benefit to ideas like the top-12 world championship finals format, holding a single regular-season top-8 event (Murfreesboro), and staging regional focus events with either prelim/final format or seeded performance order to put the top corps on in prime time. Whether a series of top-8 events like the 2011 and 2012 TOC is beneficial to DCI as a whole, or just beneficial to those top corps, is not entirely clear... but from what I know of the financial details, human nature, and the political process that created the TOC (and again, in my opinion), I suspect there is a net benefit to the top corps, but not to DCI as a whole. Similarly, changing the TOC to a private club of 7 corps instead of whichever 8 earn it competitively is another move I suspect benefits those 7 corps, but not DCI as a whole.

[cixelsyd]

I just wonder if there was this much grief and complaining when a bunch of corps formed the Mid-West Combine because they wanted to establish their own circuit with their own rules, shows, judging criteria, etc.? That seems to have worked out pretty well for everyone....

Well, yes, there was quite a bit of grief over the Combine. Other corps and their supporters objected; editorials were issued in the drum corps press; nasty cartoons portrayed directors of the Combine corps running the other corps over with a farm combine.

[JimF-LowBari]

Well, yes, there was quite a bit of grief over the Combine. Other corps and their supporters objected; editorials were issued in the drum corps press; nasty cartoons portrayed directors of the Combine corps running the other corps over with a farm combine.

Yeah OT but also want to bring out the number of corps and circuits in existance when the Combine started. No idea of the numbers involved then but can the Jr corps activity afford a split with the number of corps left today.

Or more to tha point can the Jr activity afford two groups going after the same audience base?

Edited July 11, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[cixelsyd]

And yes, while there are less corps than there used to be, that wasn't the fault of the Combine. I doubt anyone would come on here and argue that 80-90% of the corps that no longer exist were well run with proper income channels to keep them solvent? Let along competitive success, most just weren't run with enough income support to stay around. And if the MidWest Combine hadn't split off, we'd all still be in the VFW circuits only going 120bpm playing show tunes with a color presentation while high marking time the entire time. I know some would like that, but I rather like how DCI turned out splitting off.

Sorry for carpet-posting this thread... arrived here late.

a. Do you seriously believe that any possible historical path would see us still using compulsory high mark time and rule-regulated tempos in 2013? Seeing that these two issues are linked, and that everyone but VFW had abandoned the "cadence" rule prior to the Combine's formation, it is hard to imagine any scenario where these issues would not have evolved in the same way and at nearly the same times.

b. Your description of pre-DCI drum corps... well, I will just say that it is not entirely accurate in stereotyping. Also, after the show tunes and Americana I have seen so far in 2013, the comments are somewhat ironic.

c. I have no idea whether you have any real knowledge of how "well run" any of the corps were prior to your birth. Suffice it to say that they were well enough run for what they were doing (local/regional activity). What the Combine corps and DCI founders envisioned was something different - national touring. Over the 40 years since, their singular focus on the national touring model has coincided with the relegation of local and regional corps to endangered species status. It is easy to blame the local/regional corps for this, as if they were all bad managers for failing to grow into touring corps themselves. It is just as easy to blame the touring corps, for failing to support the local/regional systems that nurtured them in the first place. Like most things, the truth is somewhere in between.

[cixelsyd]

But I'll take 4,000'ish competitive bands plus the remaining corps over 440'ish competitive corps any day at providing a competitive marching/music experience for the most participants.

You speak as if there were no bands BITD.

[BRASSO]

About the name “TOC”….hmmmmm, let me think, here we are gathered to put together a name for a marketing effort…the goal of the name is to immediately create excitement and interest. Here are some candidate names:

- - Tour of a Bunch of Corps

- - Gathering of the Greedy

- - Tour of Some Winners and Some Not So Much

- - A Pretty Good Night of Drum Corps

- - Battle of the Bands

- - Dave and George’s Excellent Adventure

I really don't care what this 7 call themselves. I really don't. So if they want to call themselves " the Tour of Champions ", or something else, or whatever, so be it. The name is insignificant to me, one way or the other. So the moniker they've chosen for themselves as a " Tour of Champions " if fine with me actually.

Edited July 11, 2013 by BRASSO