What do you think is wrong with Drum Corps today (if anything)?

[Jeff Ream]

Ya' just couldn't stop yourself from circling the bait, eh Plan? :tongue:/>/>/>/>

That said, I'm pretty impressed that you haven't yet overtly mentioned BD. That's progress!

Now, what you said above in refutation to the central theme is completely incorrect. DCI's judging system is, in fact, written for music majors, design majors, and arrangement majors (if not solely for judge egos). And Crown percussion is a perfect example of the evidence to prove it.

In PM with someone else about Crown's drum book, the comment was made that Hannum's writing to too "old" for today's judging, and that Crown is getting creamed because of the open and accessible writing.

I retort (in my best drumline afficiando voice) that Hannum's writing is perfect for Crown's show because the show is 150 years old and is, in all regards except the ballad, a percussive science experiment, and it's driven by the repetitive, systematic nature of Einstein's mind.

The other side of the discussion said, in essence, that I was completely right except that Hannum's style won't win today.

Why?

Today's percussion writers compose based on phrase space, and visualize as many time and pulse changes as they can cram into the phrase space. They drive in subdivision notes into 32nds and cram the space with gobbledy-gook BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IS REWARDED BY THE JUDGES. Most corps do it and BD's incredible writing and talent only keeps them at the center of the target. Even Crown has done it.

But this year, that show, requires the open spacing and pulsing that frequently matches what the horns are doing and, in nearly every case, has to demonstrate the analytical and systematic scientific mind. Muddying up the book with "Too many notes" ($1 to Music Man) would destroy that show.

But, because the writing that best demonstrates the show doesn't match up with what judges reward today, Crown pays a price no matter how cleanly it's executed. The content requirement should match the show design, we all agree, but when it doesn't fit into the expectations of the judges, it wins no points.

I heart you platonically.

SCV is another example the last few years. even early on performer number starts going over the book number. it's clean,and it's musical.

but it's not enough ram. trust me, they like everyone else are doing the over required body moves, solo player slowly builds into ensemble in a diamond that becomes a box etc visual stuff

[JimF-LowBari]

...this thought resonates with me more than anything else. It's too dam expensive for SO many

of our young people to participate. This is the crux, and way beyond just DCI or even DCA...heck,

maybe we need federal funding! (I didn't really say that..lol). The mechanics of what's going on

out there is/are absolutely secondary to opportunity to perform...

Agree Charlie except I'd add the cost of attending shows to the too expensive list too. How the heck are we gonna get new fans if newbies see the co$t and never even want to see their first show.

[JKT90]

As with any organization with the same leadership in place they become stagnant, which I believe DCI has become at the executive level. It should be run like a business and it doesn't seem to be. Recycled ideas. Lack of vision. Afraid to change. Lack of corporate sponsorship...I'm sure some who marched DCI are in positions of influence at large corporations, develop and nurture those relationships...fund raise. Bring in some fresh ideas and perspective on things. I can't believe there isn't an organization out there that wouldn't want to sponsor DCI...Walmart, Papa Johns, FedEx, UPS, Apple, Microsoft, marching drill software company, and so on. There needs to be money for advertising, to draw in more people. Summer time family fun night, come out to the stadium to see the worlds best in your own backyard. Imagine drawing in 20-30k on a regular basis instead of 300 or so at small hs stadiums. 15 regional shows across the country instead of a couple.

This can absolutely be done...it takes vision, leadership and a plan to get there.

[FlamMan]

This is a perfect summary of exactly how I feel about the DCI leadership. I have wondered for many years why DCI cant get a primary sponsor, TV exposure, media coverage, & why they dont know how to market & promote. Like any business that has seen its business decline & experience negative growth, reorganization & firings are necessary...& this is exactly what needs to happen at DCI. Clean house & hire some experts.

As with any organization with the same leadership in place they become stagnant, which I believe DCI has become at the executive level. It should be run like a business and it doesn't seem to be. Recycled ideas. Lack of vision. Afraid to change. Lack of corporate sponsorship...I'm sure some who marched DCI are in positions of influence at large corporations, develop and nurture those relationships...fund raise. Bring in some fresh ideas and perspective on things. I can't believe there isn't an organization out there that wouldn't want to sponsor DCI...Walmart, Papa Johns, FedEx, UPS, Apple, Microsoft, marching drill software company, and so on. There needs to be money for advertising, to draw in more people. Summer time family fun night, come out to the stadium to see the worlds best in your own backyard. Imagine drawing in 20-30k on a regular basis instead of 300 or so at small hs stadiums. 15 regional shows across the country instead of a couple.

This can absolutely be done...it takes vision, leadership and a plan to get there.

Edited July 16, 2013 by FlamMan

[JKT90]

This is a perfect summary of exactly how I feel about the DCI leadership. I have wondered for many years why DCI cant get a primary sponsor, TV exposure, media coverage, & why they dont know how to market & promote. Like any business that has seen its business decline & experience negative growth, reorganization & firings are necessary...& this is exactly what needs to happen at DCI. Clean house & hire some experts.

Then it could move to Junior College and College sized stadiums...I mean they aren't being used in the summer anyways. It's fun to talk about what could be...the fact is, current leadership doesn't know HOW to grow it.

[perc2100]

I'm curious on everyone's thoughts

also, what do we do about the judging system? What would you do if you had full control over changes in DCI next year

I'm fine with current rules. DCI is a democracy run by the corps when it comes to rule changes; heck, often rules are changed because staffers or designers prod directors, or a judge wants to clarify stuff. I'm 100% OK with corps making rules and changes as they see fit.

For divisions, I wrote "other," because I kind of think it's time to either modify classes closer to what WGI does (with 'World,' 'Open,' and 'A'), or change Prelims/Semis/Finals numbers to reflect the amount of corps in competition. I think AT MOST there should be Ten Finalists, if not only Seven or Eight. You could have Eight 'World' Finalists with the 'Open' and 'A' Champions performing. I think we have a lot of great competition in a lot of the ranks, but I think from a marketing standpoint, and from an audience standpoint it might be more exciting if we tightened up the classes and/or Finalist positions. I'm not saying any classes should tour/compete less, and we can still have 'Super Regional' events like we have now with everyone competing: it would only break up the classes in such a way to create more competition. It's one thing for a 14th corps fighting with 15th & 13th place corps for a better Semifinals placement. But wouldn't it be cooler if it were corps fighting for a Top 3 Spot in another class?

Admittedly, the labeling is all semantical, with the same talent levels at the upper competing against the upper, with the lower competing withe lower, and with the middle competing with the middle tiers. Classification can be based solely on placement level from previous year.

Just a thought. I kinda hate the way classifications are in DCI right now. BDB should be World Class (probably SCV C as well), Pioneer should be Open, Spirit and Boston are not competing for Top 6, etc. I think there should be some sort of change in classification and/or number of spaces in Finals & Semis and even though that's not what the OP was likely looking for as an answer in regards to "starting a new class" (I guess for me it would be 'A' which is closer to reviving an old class), that's where my head's at

[skywhopper]

All of what you suggest is certainly true to someone who can identify the differences……but, the average person in the stands could give two ##### about phrasing and arrangement

Well, they may not be able to identify in words why they are bored with or confused by a particular show, but it's often because of the lack of musical development and resolution. Whether people can describe it or not, musical resolution is something that everyone who has grown up in our culture understands instinctively. Shows that eschew resolution or minimize their impact are going to minimize the enjoyment of the audience.

[Jeff Ream]

I'm fine with current rules. DCI is a democracy run by the corps when it comes to rule changes; heck, often rules are changed because staffers or designers prod directors, or a judge wants to clarify stuff. I'm 100% OK with corps making rules and changes as they see fit.

For divisions, I wrote "other," because I kind of think it's time to either modify classes closer to what WGI does (with 'World,' 'Open,' and 'A'), or change Prelims/Semis/Finals numbers to reflect the amount of corps in competition. I think AT MOST there should be Ten Finalists, if not only Seven or Eight. You could have Eight 'World' Finalists with the 'Open' and 'A' Champions performing. I think we have a lot of great competition in a lot of the ranks, but I think from a marketing standpoint, and from an audience standpoint it might be more exciting if we tightened up the classes and/or Finalist positions. I'm not saying any classes should tour/compete less, and we can still have 'Super Regional' events like we have now with everyone competing: it would only break up the classes in such a way to create more competition. It's one thing for a 14th corps fighting with 15th & 13th place corps for a better Semifinals placement. But wouldn't it be cooler if it were corps fighting for a Top 3 Spot in another class?

Admittedly, the labeling is all semantical, with the same talent levels at the upper competing against the upper, with the lower competing withe lower, and with the middle competing with the middle tiers. Classification can be based solely on placement level from previous year.

Just a thought. I kinda hate the way classifications are in DCI right now. BDB should be World Class (probably SCV C as well), Pioneer should be Open, Spirit and Boston are not competing for Top 6, etc. I think there should be some sort of change in classification and/or number of spaces in Finals & Semis and even though that's not what the OP was likely looking for as an answer in regards to "starting a new class" (I guess for me it would be 'A' which is closer to reviving an old class), that's where my head's at

you won't see a change in classes until you see a changein how corps are paid. going back to Open would be a huge blow to Pioneer financially.

honestly....it's time do away with classes. 40 corps performing in Indy? hell thats 2/3 of scholastic A in Dayton for percussion, 1/2 for guard.

[perc2100]

As with any organization with the same leadership in place they become stagnant, which I believe DCI has become at the executive level.

I think DCI corps like Dave Gibbs, Hopkins, and Smith at Crown are pretty great examples of leadership who have been in place for awhile who have definitely not let their organizations become stagnant. They would also, however, seem to agree with you that DCI HAS. I don't think leadership has to become stagnant, and I'm not going to judge Dan A. one way or the other without having hard facts and experience in DCI meetings. I know what DCI was like before he took over, and I know he's done some incredible things for the organization in his tenure. It seems like DCI is trying new things this summer with the drumline thing and the community stuff, which is a wonderful babystep towards growing DCI's brand. I also think with DCI having some possible internal strife between its leadership & its corps directors, it's possible that there might be a lot of change coming down the pipe that just isn't public yet. In cases of this sort of situation, it seems like the only two options are: a pizzng contest, where neither side backs down, both leaders think they're right, and decide to stand their ground & full steam ahead; or for the two parties to realize there is merit in both arguments, sit down together to tweak things that work to both party's advantage. We'll see what happens with DCI in the near future, but at this time I think we can say there has been SOME stagnation (though one might argue there has been quite a bit of 'tweaking' from a business end - such as focusing not just on Championships promotion and instead broadly focusing on ALL DCI-sponsored large regional events) with also some change. Maybe not enough change to make people happy (or maybe too much change), but I think DCI is working in baby steps (which is, IMO, the fiscally responsible way to approach change of this type of nature for a "business" like DCI).

[Jeff Ream]

As with any organization with the same leadership in place they become stagnant, which I believe DCI has become at the executive level. It should be run like a business and it doesn't seem to be. Recycled ideas. Lack of vision. Afraid to change. Lack of corporate sponsorship...I'm sure some who marched DCI are in positions of influence at large corporations, develop and nurture those relationships...fund raise. Bring in some fresh ideas and perspective on things. I can't believe there isn't an organization out there that wouldn't want to sponsor DCI...Walmart, Papa Johns, FedEx, UPS, Apple, Microsoft, marching drill software company, and so on. There needs to be money for advertising, to draw in more people. Summer time family fun night, come out to the stadium to see the worlds best in your own backyard. Imagine drawing in 20-30k on a regular basis instead of 300 or so at small hs stadiums. 15 regional shows across the country instead of a couple.

This can absolutely be done...it takes vision, leadership and a plan to get there.

this is huge, and in the last G7 statement or powerplay, they even admitted they didn't have the answers.

yes it's collective, but there's too many personal agendas or group agendas at play. even the 7 with their approach still hasn;t delivered anything in their super shows except higher prices and more back to them despite the PR.