Synth Doubling Brass****

[Musicfanatic7232]

I don't really think this is much of the problem. A brass section can still be balanced and blended if they're spread front to back, right? IMO the main issues that contribute to synth bass problems are:

1. Sheer volume. Too much of any piece of the ensemble and it'll be unbalanced.

2. Timbres that don't blend with the brass. This of course assumes that a total blend with the brass section is the goal, which it isn't always. There's a lick in the Bluecoats show that's doubled on what sounds like an electric guitar from the keyboard. Whether you like that mixture of sounds or not, it's clear that a seamless blend with the brass is not what the designers were looking for, just the same as if it was doubled on a xylophone or a glockenspiel. But when they do want it, it's hit or miss. Personally, I can't stand the choir "oohs" that some corps use when they double brass parts, for example.

3. Too few speakers. This one is rarely addressed, but I think it makes a big difference. The reason a soloist sticks out in our ears is because there's only one of them, right? Most corps only have two sources of amplified pit sound (I'm counting a single stack of multiple speakers as one source, because that's how we hear it), and no matter how loud you make them, it'll still sound different than a hornline that's spread out. I used to be a math major, so think of a semi-circle instead of a bi-modal distribution. Think about the difference between a hornline in two blocks separated by 50 yards, and a hornline covering the whole field. Totally different sound. Some corps opt for more speakers along the front sideline, and I think that helps the amplified sound a ton. And before you jump on me, remember that more speakers doesn't have to mean louder. Add more speakers and turn down each individual speaker, and you'll get a much more even sound, closer to the sound of a good hornline.

I also think (although this is more speculative) that it's subconsciously offputting to see a whole line of pit musicians making music, but to hear it only coming from the ends. A sort of Uncanny Valley effect. I think the goal in general should be to make the amplification as transparent as possible and create the illusion of totally unamplified sound, and having only two speaker stacks undermines that illusion.

that's the same lick that I was talking about. It's a baritone lick and they're using it to help them. At the beginning of the season, there was no synth in the lick but they weren't projecting it enough so they added the synth and now you can barely hear the baritones.

[skywhopper]

I don't really think this is much of the problem. A brass section can still be balanced and blended if they're spread front to back, right? IMO the main issues that contribute to synth bass problems are:

1. Sheer volume. Too much of any piece of the ensemble and it'll be unbalanced.

2. Timbres that don't blend with the brass. This of course assumes that a total blend with the brass section is the goal, which it isn't always. There's a lick in the Bluecoats show that's doubled on what sounds like an electric guitar from the keyboard. Whether you like that mixture of sounds or not, it's clear that a seamless blend with the brass is not what the designers were looking for, just the same as if it was doubled on a xylophone or a glockenspiel. But when they do want it, it's hit or miss. Personally, I can't stand the choir "oohs" that some corps use when they double brass parts, for example.

3. Too few speakers. This one is rarely addressed, but I think it makes a big difference. The reason a soloist sticks out in our ears is because there's only one of them, right? Most corps only have two sources of amplified pit sound (I'm counting a single stack of multiple speakers as one source, because that's how we hear it), and no matter how loud you make them, it'll still sound different than a hornline that's spread out. I used to be a math major, so think of a semi-circle instead of a bi-modal distribution. Think about the difference between a hornline in two blocks separated by 50 yards, and a hornline covering the whole field. Totally different sound. Some corps opt for more speakers along the front sideline, and I think that helps the amplified sound a ton. And before you jump on me, remember that more speakers doesn't have to mean louder. Add more speakers and turn down each individual speaker, and you'll get a much more even sound, closer to the sound of a good hornline.

I also think (although this is more speculative) that it's subconsciously offputting to see a whole line of pit musicians making music, but to hear it only coming from the ends. A sort of Uncanny Valley effect. I think the goal in general should be to make the amplification as transparent as possible and create the illusion of totally unamplified sound, and having only two speaker stacks undermines that illusion.

Great analysis, Nick! Definitely agree about the choral patches. And yes, more speakers turned down lower will obviously improve the effect.

[crownisking]

I must be pretty bored to even entertain this beaten-to-death topic, but I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. For starters, I can't think of very many instances where the synth is actually "doubling" the brass. Second, synth is almost never as loud as some claim it to be. Especially if you sit up high (like most people). At the Atlanta show, I couldn't hear anything from anyone's speakers, and I was only sitting at club level. I think a good bit of the criticism is coming from individuals watching on the FN or YT. What sounds loud and overbearing on vid almost never does in person. For the record, I totally understand why some people are against it. I'm just not sure why it comes up so much since we all know it isn't going anywhere.

[Geneva]

I think it's a cop out if you have weak low brass...and if it's overpowering it sounds like a huge low brown note fart. Maybe that's just me. :tongue:/>

If you don't know what the brown note is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note

[frachel]

There's not much that annoys me more than a great low brass line overpowered by a synth. I don't know if it's unique to Allentown but it seems most noticeable there. I guess I'd be OK with an Open Class or weaker World Class corps doing it, but it detracts from corps like Phantom, etc.

After they redid Allentown, the stands are probably a good 15-20 yards further away from the field than they used to be. The Bb horns (imo) don't carry as well as the G's, but the amplified sounds carry a lot. Sitting almost at the top for both Allentown nights this year, no horn line was "loud", and many times you could barely hear them playing at all (ie, softer spots in the show), and the pit and synth overpowered the brass a lot. However I don't think it was an amp volume/balance issues, because being down low it was fine.. but that extra distance makes upper seats pretty far away,

[frachel]

I must be pretty bored to even entertain this beaten-to-death topic, but I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. For starters, I can't think of very many instances where the synth is actually "doubling" the brass. Second, synth is almost never as loud as some claim it to be. Especially if you sit up high (like most people). At the Atlanta show, I couldn't hear anything from anyone's speakers, and I was only sitting at club level. I think a good bit of the criticism is coming from individuals watching on the FN or YT. What sounds loud and overbearing on vid almost never does in person. For the record, I totally understand why some people are against it. I'm just not sure why it comes up so much since we all know it isn't going anywhere.

These kind of of posts annoy me. You are saying that people that claim the synth is too loud are almost always wrong, and that your opinion on the volume is right.

It comes up time and time again because it's an issue that a lot of people don't like, and who knows, maybe something will happen one day. Probably not, but DEFINITELY not if we all just stop bringing up things we are against.

[Fran Haring]

After they redid Allentown, the stands are probably a good 15-20 yards further away from the field than they used to be. The Bb horns (imo) don't carry as well as the G's, but the amplified sounds carry a lot. Sitting almost at the top for both Allentown nights this year, no horn line was "loud", and many times you could barely hear them playing at all (ie, softer spots in the show), and the pit and synth overpowered the brass a lot. However I don't think it was an amp volume/balance issues, because being down low it was fine.. but that extra distance makes upper seats pretty far away,

Yep... back in my day, we could field 25 horns in the key of G... with every player nursing a hangover... and blow the roof off the press box and have people running for the ambulance to get treatment for bleeding ears.

And we LIKED it, dadgummit!!!!

[crownisking]

1. These kind of of posts annoy me. You are saying that people that claim the synth is too loud are almost always wrong, and that your opinion on the volume is right.

2. It comes up time and time again because it's an issue that a lot of people don't like, and who knows, maybe something will happen one day. Probably not, but DEFINITELY not if we all just stop bringing up things we are against.

1. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that an issue has been exaggerated by the individuals who oppose it.

2. DCI is not going to change any rule because some posters on DCP told them to. Until someone can actually prove, not just state, that reversing the rule will benefit the activity, it will remain in place.

[skywhopper]

I must be pretty bored to even entertain this beaten-to-death topic, but I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. For starters, I can't think of very many instances where the synth is actually "doubling" the brass. Second, synth is almost never as loud as some claim it to be.

While you're right that it's often (though not always) worse on FN streams than live, it can be pretty bad live. Very few shows have "nosebleed" seats as an option. The best non-regional stadiums have 40-50 rows at most. Most top out at 25 or 30. I avoid sitting outside the 40s if possible, but from the 35s in, high or low, I always run into at least one or two corps that are blasting the synth too loud, and in some seating positions/stadiums every show is bad, or has bad moments.

As for who doubles their brass, Cadets do at the soft beginning and soft ending. And many places in between. If you can't hear it, either you're lucky, or more likely you just don't realize that half the sound is coming out of the speakers, which is kind of my complaint about the whole thing. Almost all the corps double their contras at some point (often an octave lower). Bluecoats *features* a synth doubling the baritones. It doesn't happen all the time and not every corps does it extensively, but it's more common than a lot of us feel it should be.

[skywhopper]

1. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that an issue has been exaggerated by the individuals who oppose it.

I'm certainly game for the argument that what some of us say is too loud is just fine with other people. But I'm not lying when I say that Blue Devils' bass synth overwhelmed the brass at one of their loudest impacts (the swing throwdown on the far left side of the field) to the point that I couldn't hear the brass when the bass hit certain notes. Or that Cadets' synth did the same with the opener and closer of their show--the brass, playing extremely quietly could not be heard (or at least could not be distinguished) over the synth. This was at DeKalb, just over halfway up, on the 40 or so.

Edited August 6, 2013 by skywhopper