Does percussion affect Music Effect and Music Analysis scores?

[Kamarag]

I think they would be killing everyone in brass if it were judged from the box and not the field. In fact, I am extremely confident in this assessment. Most of the things that are so impressive from Crown's brass are things you would not be able to pick up on from the field. The overall balance and blend when they are spread out nearly 100 yards... the timing of the articulations from one side of the field to the other. I just can't see how these things could be awarded from the field.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I do believe brass should be judged from the box, but I disagree that Crown would open up a larger spread. They have plenty of issues that are evident up top but not on e field, areas where Cadets and Devils excel most of the time. I think the numbers would be very similar to what you see now...one to two tents, but even more flip flopping in the caption from one night to the next.

I know a lot of brass instructors have been pushing for the change to the box for the brass judge (there certainly was when I was teaching, as recently as 2010) but for some reason it hasn't happened. Weirdly, DCA made that change this year.

EDIT: Typo

Edited August 7, 2013 by Kamarag

[Jeff Ream]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. I do believe brass should be judged from the box, but I disagree that Crown would open up a larger spread. They have plenty of issues that are evident up top but not on e field, areas where Cadets and Crown excel most of the time. I think the numbers would be very similar to what you see now...one to two tents, but even more flip flopping in the caption from one night to the next.

I know a lot of brass instructors have been pushing for the change to the box for the brass judge (there certainly was when I was teaching, as recently as 2010) but for some reason it hasn't happened. Weirdly, DCA made that change this year.

the numbers would stay tight because most brass judges ( aka not you LOL) won't put up spreads

[skywhopper]

If their brass were so good that they could make up the difference, then they would be devastating everyone else in the brass sub caption, but they aren't.

The brass judge isn't judging (and can't hear anyway) the balance and clarity of the brass ensemble.

[skywhopper]

So if the problem is, we don't have MA judges that can hear the difference, then its a problem. If they are simply ignoring the difference, that's an even bigger problem. Either way, I don't see any way to justify such a huge discrepancy.

Again, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to bag on Crown, or suggest that they aren't working hard or playing well. I enjoy the show, and we're splitting hairs here between fantastic sections and other, slightly more fantastic sections. I just see this as a clear discrepancy that needs to be addressed.

Maybe the music analysis judges are slamming Cadets and BD for having drum books that don't fit the rest of the music. Because that's what I hear (take it with a grain of salt, I'm a brass player): fiendishly difficult battery parts that don't match the actual music in several places. Just a bunch of notes to prove they can do it. In that situation, the Percussion judge would (and should!) be giving them great scores, but the MA judge docking them for it.

[saxfreq1128]

Yes, but that will have little negative impact unless the achievement level is just horrific. It's going to have some, though minimal, impact on the sheets as the percussion judge knows who's doing what. Crown's use of others on percussion also isn't a major element of the show, it's just some cool supplemental material. The judges know and understand this.

Agree.

Similarly, the guard judge probably takes that hornline member's technique during his rifle toss in stride. (Probably a moot point, though, because his technique is actually pretty solid.)

[CrownStarr]

This is probably the best place for me to ask this. For those of you more in the know and experienced with show design/judging - what exactly is meant when we talk about how well "integrated" the percussion book is? The impression I've gotten is that Crown's book is seen as not well integrated because they don't get a lot of features or moments on their own to shine, but that seems backwards to me. Shouldn't a well-integrated book be one that's combined smoothly with the brass book towards one cohesive musical product, rather than being segmented into "brass moments" and "percussion moments"?

For example, at the beginning of the closer, the quads are coming down the 50 playing a feature while the trumpets are playing a great fast melody off on side 1. Isn't that more "integrated" than if the quads were playing by themselves? Whether this style of writing leads to better scores is another question, but specifically the use of "integrated" has been puzzling me.

Edited August 7, 2013 by CrownStarr

[CrownStarr]

And another side-note: some of the most musically impressive stuff about Crown's drumline for me personally is not the running and gunning, mixed meter, percussion feature type stuff, but what they're doing in Also Sprach Zarathustra at the beginning and the end of the show. They play some very wide-open rhythms often stretched across significant tempo changes, and at least to my ear they pulled off those sections extremely well when I heard them in Allentown. Do judges credit that sort of stuff (for any corps), or are they more focused on the fast and intricate? As far as I can remember, I didn't hear many corps playing that sort of music (I also didn't really see all of the corps at the beginning of the shows).

Edited August 7, 2013 by CrownStarr

[garfield]

Maybe the music analysis judges are slamming Cadets and BD for having drum books that don't fit the rest of the music. Because that's what I hear (take it with a grain of salt, I'm a brass player): fiendishly difficult battery parts that don't match the actual music in several places. Just a bunch of notes to prove they can do it. In that situation, the Percussion judge would (and should!) be giving them great scores, but the MA judge docking them for it.

^^^This^^^

[garfield]

And another side-note: some of the most musically impressive stuff about Crown's drumline for me personally is not the running and gunning, mixed meter, percussion feature type stuff, but what they're doing in Also Sprach Zarathustra at the beginning and the end of the show. They play some very wide-open rhythms often stretched across significant tempo changes, and at least to my ear they pulled off those sections extremely well when I heard them in Allentown. Do judges credit that sort of stuff (for any corps), or are they more focused on the fast and intricate? As far as I can remember, I didn't hear many corps playing that sort of music (I also didn't really see all of the corps at the beginning of the shows).

Your comments are more dead on correct than you probably know. Your points ARE the issue.

I'm REALLY tired of hearing slams and non-correlated-percussion-writing-to-prove-our-chops books that stick out like a sore thumb and add virtually nothing to the musicality of the performance.

Crown's drum book is impressive BECAUSE it's NOT that.

IMO

[JamMan]

How about the general weakness of the pit's book? That stuff is miles behind groups like BD, Cadets, SCV, Bluecoats and Cavaliers.