Pit Amplification Almost Worthless..You Decide

[perc2100]

I always thought that needing to mic the pit was done with underhanded reasoning, BUT, after going back and listening to my dvds from the early 80s....I am glad they did what they did. The sound now is heads and tails above what it was. The need for the number of people in the pit should be the real question.

I think that question has been addressed and answered, though. The 'need' for that many people in the front ensemble is to give designers the largest color pallet possible utilizing different voicings and parts. When you watch a front ensemble these days, you see a TON of multitasking, which tells me that no one is sitting around because of lack of stuff to do (i.e. there aren't too many people for the task). I see several people playing marimba, but that might literally be five people playing three different parts while ALSO playing auxiliary instruments. The size of a front ensemble is not to produce more volume, but is to produce more texture, more depth of orchestration, more musical colors.

I agree that ensemble characteristic of sound from 1980s to now is astounding, and I MUCH prefer what we have today (and so do all of the front ensemble designers I know/talk with, many of whom marched BITD when front ensembles were all acoustic).

[perc2100]

Do you care to learn ANYTHING from this thread?

1) obviously not

2) I think the poster you're replying to is a flat out troll

Like I said in another reply, if for no other reason the OP's assanine (misspelled on purpose ) assertions have been beneficial because they prompted you to post those outstanding front ensemble videos. Thank you for that!!

[charlie1223]

1) obviously not

2) I think the poster you're replying to is a flat out troll

Like I said in another reply, if for no other reason the OP's assanine (misspelled on purpose :hehe:/> ) assertions have been beneficial because they prompted you to post those outstanding front ensemble videos. Thank you for that!!

You are definitely right about that poster....

And np! ...Those Front Ensembles can speak for themselves that's for #### sure!!!

[cavie95]

The pit is the closest thing to the audience. Humans hear what is closest to them. Percussive sounds are heard above harmonic tones. Its not a percussion concert. Pit is there to support the wind ensemble unless its a feature. Its a color. A vegetable. Blending is something MUSICIANS do. No need to mic.

Fixed.

And I agree with the above statement. This applies to all instruments in drum corps. NOTHING needs to be mic'd.

[charlie1223]

Fixed.

And I agree with the above statement. This applies to all instruments in drum corps. NOTHING needs to be mic'd.

Do you think that it's a conspiracy by A&E providers that EVERY drum corps and marching band circuit in the country allows amplification? (DCA will allow amplification next year).

Imagine this, EVERY seriously competitive organization whether drum corps or marching band will be amplifying their pit. Non-amplified pits will literally be extinct. If you don't think front ensembles need to mic'd than maybe you haven't been listening... nearly every professional, designer, player and sponsors that is involved with Front Ensembles in the pageantry arts accepts and endorses amplification. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, the people that deal with it every day know what they are talking about? Or are we just stuck on this "purity & traditional" idea and afraid to admit that maybe drum corps back in the day got it wrong the first time... and maybe they should have amplified the pit the first time they were introduced into this circuit.

So you may feel that nothing needs to be mic'd but it is pretty much a selfish position to take given the advancements to the players, arrangers and equipment.

Edited August 21, 2013 by charlie1223

[scottgordon]

nearly every professional, designer, player and sponsors that is involved with Front Ensembles in the pageantry arts accepts and endorses amplification.

But there ARE other outdoor musical pageantry competitions that don't use amplification, such as pipes and drums.

Furthermore, your argument could be used to justify woodwinds and anything else that "bands" do. The question that remains in my mind, is not whether everyone else is doing it, but whether drumcorps should be doing it.

I am equally un-swayed by the "look how great they are" argument. By that argument, anything that's "good" should be allowed. For instance, what if one of the corps came out and just played football? You could say "but look at how good they are at it", and how well it blends with the football field. There are LOTS of good things in this world. Drum and Bugle corps is one thing that is very, very good, and I don't see why it needs to systemically replace itself with other things.

[skywhopper]

I'm not sure of your understanding of english language, but when you use qualifiers like "entirely" and "no" and "any" in regards to front ensemble performers individual musical responsibility, you are saying that they are playing with zero balance and blend.

No. I said they have zero responsibility for the ultimate balance and blend. They can't control what's coming out of the PAs.

That's rubbish: an ignorant statement with literally zero basis in reality. If you don't think front ensemble musicians are CONSTANTLY striving for ensemble (as in full drum corps musical ensemble) balance and blend you are naive about front ensemble contribution to the ensemble sound.

I'm absolutely certain they are striving for this, and yet, the current method of amplification means that ultimately they aren't in control of their balance with the rest of the ensemble.

If the pit players were in control of their own volume, or if there was a sound check followed by a fixed mix, then my argument would be wrong, sure. But the mix is constantly adjusted during the show, and staff can (and do) turn things up or down to adjust the balance.

you are still making assertions that these dynamics, phrasing, and volume are entirely out of the individual player's control.

I stand by what I think is an obvious statement that the volume of the sound coming out of the PAs is entirely out of the individual player's control. That's not a comment on the performers, and I'm certain they are being taught and are performing in all the correct ways. I never mentioned phrasing.

I don't believe and never meant to imply that the pit is just playing things without any musicality and that is all being controlled by the staff. The pit players are awesome musicians and they're playing amazing and beautiful music. But, they are no longer responsible for their blend with the rest of the ensemble.

[charlie1223]

But there ARE other outdoor musical pageantry competitions that don't use amplification, such as pipes and drums.

oh do they have FRONT ENSEMBLES? NO! Which is what that comment was referring to! Look back... it clearly says related to Front Ensembles... :doh:/>/>/>/>/>

Furthermore, your argument could be used to justify woodwinds and anything else that "bands" do. The question that remains in my mind, is not whether everyone else is doing it, but whether drumcorps should be doing it.

You're using that argument on the wrong guy my friend... I am very much in favor of woodwinds because of the reason that "bands" DO use it. And yes, drum corps SHOULD be using amplification because drum corps should be the BEST at what they do. Not amplifying the pit literally makes it impossible for them to be the best at what they do and have it MEAN anything.

I am equally un-swayed by the "look how great they are" argument. By that argument, anything that's "good" should be allowed. For instance, what if one of the corps came out and just played football? You could say "but look at how good they are at it", and how well it blends with the football field. There are LOTS of good things in this world. Drum and Bugle corps is one thing that is very, very good, and I don't see why it needs to systemically replace itself with other things.

Well, if you take everything I say out of context like you just did I'd be equally unswayed by any of my arguments... Are you seriously saying that you took my argument about how masterful the arrangements and techniques are of the pit and translated that into "WELL.. IF AMPLIFICATION MAKES PITS "SOUND AND LOOK GOOD" THEN ANYTHING THAT'S GOOD SHOULD BE ALLOWED! AND THAT'S BAD BECAUSE THEN LITERALLY ANYTHING THAT'S GOOD CAN BE IN DRUM CORPS! LIKE MY GRANDMAS REALLY GOOD APPLE PIE! AND A REALLY GOOD TRACK TEAM! AND REALLY GOOD PROFESSIONAL WOODWORKING! AND THAT'S NOT DRUM CORPS! SO I DON'T WANT PITS TO "LOOK OR SOUND GOOD" BECAUSE THAT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE TO ALLOWING EVERYTHING THAT'S GOOD... LITERALLY..." I mean... this is some kind of joke, right? :rock:/>/>/>

Do the words "READING COMPREHENSION" mean anything to you? :doh:/>/>/>/>/> :doh:/>/>/>/>/> :doh:/>/>/>/>/>

Edited August 21, 2013 by charlie1223

[MikeD]

Furthermore, your argument could be used to justify woodwinds and anything else that "bands" do.

OK, I agree with you...bring on the WW. :lookaround:/>

[funkjazzaxe]

My .02 is that I totally understand the rational behind mic'ing the pit. Allows for better technique, and allows the pit to have more licks that can actually be speak clearly more than when the brass is just playing pianissimo or playing backfield. That said, I feel that mic'ing anything in drum corps is a step backward in the art. The totally acoustic nature of drum corps gave it an honesty and authenticity that just doesn't feel the same through a PA system. There is a strange imbalance when certain instruments are placed FOH through the PA and others (field brass/drums) are dry/un-amplified. It is like going to see a garage band where the instruments are playing straight through the amps and the singers are the only thing in the PA. It sounds imbalanced and amateurish, no matter how careful you are to balance the dry instruments with the PA. Couple the fact that now corps are starting to employ digital effects to buff out the instruments (reverb, delay, compression, etc- listen to the solo brass through the mic, sounds like a synth) and it leads to an even more disconnected sound between the unamplified instruments and what is coming through FOH. Mic'ing also opened the Pandora's box of supporting brass with synths. There is nothing impressive about blowing someone down with a wall of sound coming out of a keyboard though a rack of power amps. Anyone can do that. Now that corps are starting to "fake" it, the big impacts are kind of diminished.

Even though strict acoustic leads to limitations in volume and certain techniques, to me it lead to being more creative in staging and the use of dynamics. In a way, allowing PA systems in drum corps is like allowing aluminum bats in the major leagues- sure, you can hit the ball farther and "better", but the art and authenticity of the achievement is watered down and in the end, diminished.

Edited August 21, 2013 by funkjazzaxe