Drum Corps is About 100 Years Behind

[GUARDLING]

No, that is where you are wrong. SCV with Les Mis was not all about the visuals; they made dang sure that Shaw and Rennick kept the music very recognizable, communicative, and extremely accessible to the fans in the audience. If it was all about the visual the music arranging would have been very disjunctive.

no youre wrong there..if SCV chose ( like any corps ) to have a cut up version it could have easily been done. I know this 1st hand about the visual and how it needed to take priority or at least was 1st thing on the table. :smile:/>/> you seem to think it works that just because of visuals the music gets cut up rather than that is a MUSIC design choice. design is powerful...for sure BUT do you really think in ANY corps music people dont have a voice? Of course they do.Now the music design choice may or may not be what some like but nonetheless it is still a choice or could be

Edited August 28, 2013 by GUARDLING

[BRASSO]

I was in judges meeting decades ago and remember music people always moaning about all that was talked about was visual to the music...decades ago

This just points to the fact that some things never change.

With all the criticisms of not going to a park and bark playing, if I'm given a choice between a Corps running with their instruments pell mell across the field during their show, or some great brass playing of a recognizeable song in a park and bark mode, I'll take the latter any day of the week. Don't get me wrong, I like the great visuials we've developed over the years, but I don't want to do this at the expense of the music playing. Now... if I was a Guard person, I might be looking at this from an entirely different perspective, and I get that.

[drilltech1]

This just points to the fact that some things never change.

With all the criticisms of not going to a park and bark playing, if I'm given a choice between a Corps running with their instruments pell mell across the field during their show, or some great brass playing of a recognizeable song in a park and bark mode, I'll take the latter any day of the week. Don't get me wrong, I like the great visuials we've developed over the years, but I don't want to do this at the expense of the music playing. Now... if I was a Guard person, I might be looking at this from an entirely different perspective, and I get that.

With due respect to your most venerable stature on DCP, I wonder if bugles had valves and rotors when you marched?

From my discussions and interviews with the current marching memberships, reading their essays as they apply for sponsorships, and being privy to a number of their journal postings from tour, my conclusion is that the kids today who are the performers PREFER the challenge of maximizing putting out great music while attempting visual difficulty rather than the staid park and bark which they can get with stage band, wind symphony, or jazz joint. Of course, there are occasional opportunities that they enjoy "letting loose", but to equate that to musical excellence on a marching field is not an automatic given. Yes the show is for the audience who pays the bills by buying the tickets and for the judges, but it is also for the performers who fork over huge amounts for the tuitions and costs to have the experience. They live at a fast pace in a fast world which is not retirement.

This triad (performer, audience, and judges) is too often forgotten on many of the threads with various posters canonizing their own narcissisms of "I like this, I like that." I hold that all three sides of the triangle must be present and satiated for the best performance of excellence.

Edited August 28, 2013 by drilltech1

[skywhopper]

Ok, now I get your drift. What has happened is that you thought my comment was directed at using symphonies as a model; that was not what my sarcasm was directed at. My sarcasm was directed at the idiotic statement that Drum Corps is about 100 years behind; and I was merely pointing out the absurdity of that contention by stating that, if true, then symphonies are also about 100 years behind. And we have tons of evidence (from modern compositions to the use of modern electronic technology) to show that neither DCI nor Symphonies are anywhere close to being archaic.

Yep, sorry about the confusion. I should have made it clear that I was replying to your post because I agreed with your ultimate point.

[Stu]

no youre wrong there..if SCV chose ( like any corps ) to have a cut up version it could have easily been done.

But that is my point!!!!! SCV did not place 'ALL' emphases on visual which would have inevitably lead to grossly cut up versions of music; they chose to make sure that while being visually intriguing the music was still very accessible to the listening audience; which means, by definition, they did not place 'ALL' emphasis on the visual.

I know this 1st hand about the visual and how it needed to take priority or at least was 1st thing on the table. :smile:/>/>/> you seem to think it works that just because of visuals the music gets cut up rather than that is a MUSIC design choice. design is powerful...for sure BUT do you really think in ANY corps music people dont have a voice? Of course they do.Now the music design choice may or may not be what some like but nonetheless it is still a choice or could be

Nope; I am saying that the true creation of a great show design would lead to the audience being able to understand the audio without the visual. In other mediums where there is both visual and audio (ie musicals and movies) the soundtracks certainly can be understood on CD's without the need to have the visual on the DVD's. The big problem with DCI design today, imo, is that the visual is driving the medium so much that the audio becomes so extremely disjunctive that the music ends up losing all communicative capabilities. That is why I, and many, many, many, many, others enjoyed the SCV Les Mis; not only for the excellent visual aspects, but also for the melodic content which was communicated in an understandable manner. And we have enjoyed shows in the past utilizing the Rite of Spring (Cadets, The Cavaliers, and Phantom Regiment). But we enjoyed those shows because the music melodic content was coherent and understandable as well as the visual aspects being extremely enjoyable to watch. And I, and many, many others are very distracted, no matter how awesome the visual, we are very distracted from enjoying the visual if the music interacting with the visual is disjunctive. Again that is why the audience exploded for The Cavaliers Rite, the Regiment Rite, but not for the Blue Devils Rite.

[flammaster]

[GUARDLING]

This just points to the fact that some things never change.

With all the criticisms of not going to a park and bark playing, if I'm given a choice between a Corps running with their instruments pell mell across the field during their show, or some great brass playing of a recognizeable song in a park and bark mode, I'll take the latter any day of the week. Don't get me wrong, I like the great visuials we've developed over the years, but I don't want to do this at the expense of the music playing. Now... if I was a Guard person, I might be looking at this from an entirely different perspective, and I get that.

and Brass playing has NEVER been better IMO...maybe not the choice of music some like BUT certainly more complicated and just plain ole played better..IMO

[GUARDLING]

But that is my point!!!!! SCV did not place 'ALL' emphases on visual which would have inevitably lead to grossly cut up versions of music; they chose to make sure that while being visually intriguing the music was still very accessible to the listening audience; which means, by definition, they did not place 'ALL' emphasis on the visual.

Nope; I am saying that the true creation of a great show design would lead to the audience being able to understand the audio without the visual. In other mediums where there is both visual and audio (ie musicals and movies) the soundtracks certainly can be understood on CD's without the need to have the visual on the DVD's. The big problem with DCI design today, imo, is that the visual is driving the medium so much that the audio becomes so extremely disjunctive that the music ends up losing all communicative capabilities. That is why I, and many, many, many, many, others enjoyed the SCV Les Mis; not only for the excellent visual aspects, but also for the melodic content which was communicated in an understandable manner. And we have enjoyed shows in the past utilizing the Rite of Spring (Cadets, The Cavaliers, and Phantom Regiment). But we enjoyed those shows because the music melodic content was coherent and understandable as well as the visual aspects being extremely enjoyable to watch. And I, and many, many others are very distracted, no matter how awesome the visual, we are very distracted from enjoying the visual if the music interacting with the visual is disjunctive. Again that is why the audience exploded for The Cavaliers Rite, the Regiment Rite, but not for the Blue Devils Rite.

well IMO and many others also we have got to the point that if you are only listening or just watching whatever you are missing the big picture of the activity today and for many years already..the visuals bring the music to life and if you dont watch then you miss alot...But I get from your perspective what you mean. Ive never been a buy a cd person just to listen..To be truthful it kind of always bored me BUT I get it for those who do like that and understand why it wouldnt be the quality you like. BUT seeing it with music is the whole enchalda again IMO

[Stu]

well IMO and many others also we have got to the point that if you are only listening or just watching whatever you are missing the big picture of the activity today and for many years already..the visuals bring the music to life and if you dont watch then you miss alot...But I get from your perspective what you mean. Ive never been a buy a cd person just to listen..To be truthful it kind of always bored me BUT I get it for those who do like that and understand why it wouldnt be the quality you like. BUT seeing it with music is the whole enchalda again IMO

While we are discussing opinion I do believe that the overwhelming majority of the fans at DCI shows would fall on my side; can't enjoy and understand the music... can't really enjoy the full entire package. And if the visual is so singularly primary in its focus that it takes the visual to actually breath life into everything else, well that describes most so-called 'art films' which are shown in small theaters with seven people in the seats; and I find that to be boring. But in movies that are attended by the millions of people the sound, the dialogue, is just as important as the visual. And in an activity like DCI the music is far more than background enhancement, the music is the actual 'dialogue' of the performers. Thus in DCI it takes both understandable communicative music (dialogue) and great visual impact which in turn enhances each other, not one overbearing aspect of visual breathing life into the other side item of sound. Otherwise you end up creating this great and wonderful visual program with disjunctive non comprehensive dialogue like many DCI designed programs have become. And if you really do believe that DCI programs should be ALL about the visual with the music as a mere side spotlight on the visual, you might want to check your narcissistic meter; it will be pegged out to the max.

[BRASSO]

my conclusion is that the kids today who are the performers PREFER the challenge of maximizing putting out great music while attempting visual difficulty rather than the staid park and bark

Thats fine. I did not state that I prefer the park and park over everything else either. I gave an example of contrast of this with another ( that bears no repeating, imo )

This activity NEEDS to grow an audience base. It can not survive a flat line or 1-3 % audience growth if Corps increasing costs exceed the low percentage or flat line audience figures. While we applaud what MM's desire, the reality is that what the audience wants is as equally important, if not more so, to the overall stability, health and future prospects of the activity. The performamces are not produced in a vacumn. They are produced in front of audiences. You and I here, and all the performers in all the Corps could agree that we love the music, the visuals, the entire spectacle of DCI Drum Corps, but in the end it matters not. Not if these shows don't grow an audience in the future years. Thats the sobering reality that must be faced, imo.

Edited August 28, 2013 by BRASSO