charlie1223 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I think that the instrument makers had a hand in the passing of this rule change too. They could streamline their product lines and save money if indoor and outdoor equipment was the same, and I believe that this influenced adding amps as much as anything that has been given to us as a reason for amps... At this point, it's the herd mentality of explanation that gets regurgitated until it is the reality.So $$ interests have crept into DCI, which is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of many of the instrument changes over the last many years. If you take a look at many of instrument manufacturer websites you will see they have selections for outdoor and indoor ensemble types. In fact a retailer would want there to be a differentiation between outdoor and indoor ensembles as opposed to wanting to "streamline their indoor and outdoor equipment". That way, you would be compelled to buy more instead of substituting indoor equipment outdoors. for example, Yamaha actually created Acoustalon marimba bars specifically for outdoor projection and weather protection and they also create different keyboard frame designs to make outdoor equipment more easily handled and moved. On the implement side, its really ridiculous to think that any kind of streamline is going on when there are different categories for specifically outdoor and indoor ensembles and mallet usage. AND most obviously, there is no way indoor equipment could be used in an drumline so streamlining here is non-existent. So, I'm not commenting on the fact that you think there is a special interest in DCI (don't think there is) but I can tell you that the reason you stated "to streamline their product lines and save money if indoor and outdoor equipment is the same" is demonstrably false when you even take a moment to look at the wide array of differentiation between outdoor and indoor equipment that instrument manufacturers have. Edited April 3, 2014 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Which is why I don't understand why we need five marimbas and four vibes as standard now. (I asked a respected pit arranger once and was told it was for the richness of sound. Well, we've got electronics now; we can make things as rich as we want.) As long as I'm on my soapbox, I also don't understand (as a marimbist) why so many corps swap out their synthetic keyboard keys for far more expensive rosewood keys for performances. Really...get a few feet back and who is going to tell the difference? And don't get me started on a pit member striking a triangle and then doing that vibrato motion with their hand. It works in a recital hall, but on a drum corps field? Sheesh. To answer your question about pit sizes and the need for 4 vibes and 5 marimbas. Why would a choir arranger want any more than 1 soprano, 1 alto, 1 tenor, and 1 bass in their choir? Why in the drum corps do we have more than 1 instrument per part? Do you believe than amplified drum corps with 1 trumpet, 1 mello, 1 bari and 1 tuba would sound as rich as having 16 or more per part? (even though we could juice the amps of that 4 member hornline to be as loud as the full one) The richness of the sound is the reason but richness does NOT have to do volume. No matter how we amplify a 1 marimba and 1 vibe ensemble it won't sound as rich as amplified 4 vibe, 5 marimba ensemble. That's not saying that a 4 person drum corps or choir won't also sound rich and beautiful. But its not the richness that we can appreciate in large outdoor settings not matter how amplified. But you don't have to worry. I don't see drum corps reprising one of Musser's "Marimba Orchestras" any time soon. Edited April 3, 2014 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 If you take a look at many of instrument manufacturer websites you will see they have selections for outdoor and indoor ensemble types. In fact a retailer would want there to be a differentiation between outdoor and indoor ensembles as opposed to wanting to "streamline their indoor and outdoor equipment". That way, you would be compelled to buy more instead of substituting indoor equipment outdoors. for example, Yamaha actually created Acoustalon marimba bars specifically for outdoor projection and weather protection and they also create different keyboard frame designs to make outdoor equipment more easily handled and moved. On the implement side, its really ridiculous to think that any kind of streamline is going on when there are different categories for specifically outdoor and indoor ensembles and mallet usage. AND most obviously, there is no way indoor equipment could be used in an drumline so streamlining here is non-existent. So, I'm not commenting on the fact that you think there is a special interest in DCI (don't think there is) but I can tell you that the reason you stated "to streamline their product lines and save money if indoor and outdoor equipment is the same" is demonstrably false when you even take a moment to look at the wide array of differentiation between outdoor and indoor equipment that instrument manufacturers have. So the differentiator is the "frame" and mallet usage, that's not what I was talking about. Most music programs have 1 set of equipment that they use both indoors and outdoors because these things are expensive. So, if it's good enough for outdoors, it's good enough for concert season as well. Also, if it's good enough for DCI or WGI, it's good enough for everyone else... The Yamaha Acoustalon marimba bars that you mention don't say that they are designed specifically for outdoor projection and weather protection, but they're supposed to sound like Rosewood, provide a pure tone, and be durable. That sounds like they're marketed for both outdoor and indoor use: http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/yamaha-ym-2400c-marimba/marimba Yamaha 4.3 Octave Acoustalon Marimba - Product InformationYamaha 4 1/3 Octave Acoustalon marimba with A25-C76 range, three-position resonator slots, height adjustable frame, dual angle supports and horizontal leg supports. Includes cover.The Acoustalon bars are produced from fiberglass reinforced plastic in a one-step manufacturing process to provide exceptional durability and a pure tone. The scientifically designed Sonic Tones Holes produced in this process give Acoustalon bars a tone similar to rosewood. The graduated tone bars are a professional feature that promotes tone quality, volume and playability. The resonators of the YM-2400 feature a cut-away design to reduce overall weight of the instrument and also feature a 2-tracking system that allows resonator height adjustment for pitch and tone control. The ability to adjust the height of the YM-2400 promotes proper playing technique and comfort. A lower crossbar support helps to ensure the integrity and life of the contemporary styled height adjustable frame. Oversized, 4" casters allow for easy transport. Two casters lock for stability during performance. Range: 4 1/3 octave; A-c4 Bars: Acoustalon with Sonic Tone Holes Bar Size: Graduating from 1 1/2" ~ 2 1/4" x 1" Resonators: Cut-away design and 3-tracking system. Height Adjustable: Height adjustable from 35" to 38 1/4". Dimensions: 78" x 34 1/4" Weight: 134 1/2 pounds Casters: Oversized, 4" Pitch: A=442Hz On the implement side, its really ridiculous to think that any kind of streamline is going on when there are different categories for specifically outdoor and indoor ensembles and mallet usage. AND most obviously, there is no way indoor equipment could be used in an drumline so streamlining here is non-existent. So, I'm not commenting on the fact that you think there is a special interest in DCI (don't think there is) but I can tell you that the reason you stated "to streamline their product lines and save money if indoor and outdoor equipment is the same" is demonstrably false when you even take a moment to look at the wide array of differentiation between outdoor and indoor equipment that instrument manufacturers have. The Adams 4.3 Oct Concert Synthetic Marimba with Field frame says that it was designed specifically for both outdoor and indoor use to suit "all your performing needs". So there's that... http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/26749/marimba The Adams 4.3 Oct Soloist Padouk with Voyager frame is marketed for home or school use ( indoors) and also can fit into "the trunk of almost any car". They are also "extremely durable and offer effortless adjustment to a wide range of playing heights". http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/adams-mspv43-marimba/marimba#full-description The Yamaha 5 Octave Professional Rosewood Marimba has "oversized, 4" casters allow for easy transport over rough surfaces", which suggests outdoor use. http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/yamaha-ym5100ac-rosewood-marimba/marimba#full-description So, I've looked at your examples and what I've found doesn't quite back you up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 To answer your question about pit sizes and the need for 4 vibes and 5 marimbas. Why would a choir arranger want any more than 1 soprano, 1 alto, 1 tenor, and 1 bass in their choir? Why in the drum corps do we have more than 1 instrument per part? Do you believe than amplified drum corps with 1 trumpet, 1 mello, 1 bari and 1 tuba would sound as rich as having 16 or more per part? (even though we could juice the amps of that 4 member hornline to be as loud as the full one) The richness of the sound is the reason but richness does NOT have to do volume. No matter how we amplify a 1 marimba and 1 vibe ensemble it won't sound as rich as amplified 4 vibe, 5 marimba ensemble. That's not saying that a 4 person drum corps or choir won't also sound rich and beautiful. But its not the richness that we can appreciate in large outdoor settings not matter how amplified. But you don't have to worry. I don't see drum corps reprising one of Musser's "Marimba Orchestras" any time soon. One type of each instrument type of pit instrument could already balance with many of the brass instruments on the field. I will buy your argument that two vibes and three marimbas will sound even fuller, but we're at the stage where a small ensemble is very often more important than the larger ensemble. It is not a correct analogy to compare the pit to a choir the way you have... The pit isn't a "choir", it is a small ensemble within a larger ensemble that is supposed to balance and blend within that larger ensemble until it is time for it to have a feature. When the pit has a feature, the larger ensemble needs to back off and allow the smaller ensemble to take the forefront. Now what we have is a small ensemble that does not always balance within the larger ensemble; it overpowers that larger ensemble and changes the sound of that larger ensemble immensely. In WGI, this isn't a problem, it is a requirement. The "pit" is the larger ensemble. In DCI performing groups this arrangement has changed the balance and sound in ways that many could not have imagined. Still, it would be interesting to just go all out and hear a group with many keyboards on the field with maybe a smaller brassline and see what that is like. It could be innovative, and I would not be opposed to hear a one off of a show that places such an emphasis on the pit in this way. Afterall, they can have pretty much anything in there these days. Imagine a show where there are 65 Guard, 20 Battery (10 Snares, 5 Tenors, 5 Basses), and 30 pit ( many more various keyboards); and only 43 Brass and 2 DMs ( for a 150 total). Could be interesting concept... I know that in 1986 Cadets (4th) performed a show ( Christopher Street from On the Waterfront, Wonderful Town) with very few guard (<10?) and an augmented brassline, so this kind of experimentation has been done before. The last many Blue Devil's show have prominently feature the pit or "front ensemble" for extended periods in their shows as well. So, maybe someone should go crazy one year! I'd be quite ok with hearing one of Musser's Marimba Orchestras actually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 So the differentiator is the "frame" and mallet usage, that's not what I was talking about. Most music programs have 1 set of equipment that they use both indoors and outdoors because these things are expensive. So, if it's good enough for outdoors, it's good enough for concert season as well. Also, if it's good enough for DCI or WGI, it's good enough for everyone else... There are absolutely differentiations in frames, keys, and mallets especially when you are considering indoor and outdoor ensembles. This cannot be ignored and for percussionists I assure you that these differences are obvious and tangible and I am not making this up. Now, the point that you are finding difficult to understand is understanding what is "good enough". If I said that you could use a M184 on the lowest register of a 5 octave rose wood concert marimba would you say that that is good enough? Maybe you don't understand what a M184 is but it is an extremely hard yarn mallet that is not designed to create the best quality of sound at the lowest end of the marimba. But does that stop you from having it be "good enough" for that register? If you are poor musician or are choosing to break some Low C's then yes. The point is that the versatility of a marimba (I can play it anywhere) doesn't mean that it is good enough for everywhere. If a corps plays with acoustalon outside it DOES NOT mean that is the best choice for an indoor classical percussion ensemble. If you're trying to save money it will make due but its really up to taste if you feel that its "Good enough". But I just don't want you to poo poo the choices that percussionist make to have their ensembles sound as best as they possibly can or confuse the fact that schools cannot afford the best instruments means as meaning that what they have is "good enough". Plus, I can tell you that a lot high school and especially college groups do not care what mallets or instruments that WGI or DCI groups use especially when they are deciding what to use for a classical percussion ensemble environment. If you are deciding what to use for an outdoor marching ensemble or an indoor percussion ensemble then the choices of DCI and WGI would be more pertinent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) The Yamaha Acoustalon marimba bars that you mention don't say that they are designed specifically for outdoor projection and weather protection, but they're supposed to sound like Rosewood, provide a pure tone, and be durable. That sounds like they're marketed for both outdoor and indoor use: The Adams 4.3 Oct Concert Synthetic Marimba with Field frame says that it was designed specifically for both outdoor and indoor use to suit "all your performing needs". So there's that... http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/26749/marimba The Adams 4.3 Oct Soloist Padouk with Voyager frame is marketed for home or school use ( indoors) and also can fit into "the trunk of almost any car". They are also "extremely durable and offer effortless adjustment to a wide range of playing heights". http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/adams-mspv43-marimba/marimba#full-description The Yamaha 5 Octave Professional Rosewood Marimba has "oversized, 4" casters allow for easy transport over rough surfaces", which suggests outdoor use. http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/yamaha-ym5100ac-rosewood-marimba/marimba#full-description So, I've looked at your examples and what I've found doesn't quite back you up. I appreciate your thoroughness, but having experience with using a wide variety of percussion instruments and marimbas I don't want you to completely rely on the description of acoustalon on the website to counter my argument. The acoustalon have a very resonant sound and can project more than rosewood however, no matter what the website says, they act and sound very different from rosewood keys. The fact that acoustalon is advertised for both indoor and outdoor means little to the discussion. It's not like a marimba with acoustalon doesn't work if its inside, so ofcourse... you can say it's for both indoor and outdoor DUH! But, if we're talking about getting the most preferred sound for a marimba in an indoor context, again this comes from having experience in percussion, you appreciate more the sound of rosewood bars. To address each of the descriptions you pulled. If a frame is designed for "outdoor" use then it is, by default, able to be used indoors so this is a default simulation. But in terms of frames its important that you notice that having a field frame is an option and that all marimbas do not automatically have a field frame therefore all marimbas are not automatically best suited for outdoor use. Being able to transport a marimba is a great feature for indoor ensemble and outdoor ensembles so this feature isn't necessarily specific to only outdoor ensembles. And lastly 4'' casters are really small and NOT great for outdoor mobility. Most drum corps have 8 - 10 inch tires on their frames. Check the out the Cavies here and their massive tires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10MUmwfDeeM So through a different context with more information, it does back up what I'm saying. Edited April 4, 2014 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) There are absolutely differentiations in frames, keys, and mallets especially when you are considering indoor and outdoor ensembles. This cannot be ignored and for percussionists I assure you that these differences are obvious and tangible and I am not making this up. Now, the point that you are finding difficult to understand is understanding what is "good enough". If I said that you could use a M184 on the lowest register of a 5 octave rose wood concert marimba would you say that that is good enough? Maybe you don't understand what a M184 is but it is an extremely hard yarn mallet that is not designed to create the best quality of sound at the lowest end of the marimba. But does that stop you from having it be "good enough" for that register? If you are poor musician or are choosing to break some Low C's then yes. The point is that the versatility of a marimba (I can play it anywhere) doesn't mean that it is good enough for everywhere. If a corps plays with acoustalon outside it DOES NOT mean that is the best choice for an indoor classical percussion ensemble. If you're trying to save money it will make due but its really up to taste if you feel that its "Good enough". But I just don't want you to poo poo the choices that percussionist make to have their ensembles sound as best as they possibly can or confuse the fact that schools cannot afford the best instruments means as meaning that what they have is "good enough". Plus, I can tell you that a lot high school and especially college groups do not care what mallets or instruments that WGI or DCI groups use especially when they are deciding what to use for a classical percussion ensemble environment. If you are deciding what to use for an outdoor marching ensemble or an indoor percussion ensemble then the choices of DCI and WGI would be more pertinent. I didn't say there weren't differences between frames, mallets, keys, et cetera. I'm not sure where you got that from the text you quoted above. Different mallets for different circumstances ( such as a M172 versus an M184 for example) is a given and is based upon the performer and staff/teacher/instructor/composer, and something that most organizations aren't going to argue about buying more than one of.... Also, nothing to do with what I wrote. They're not part of the keyboards, you use them to play the keyboard... I wasn't talking about mallets that are inexpensive to have multiple varieties of... Do you have proof that most organizations have multiple sets of keyboards laying around and the specialized knowledge of what to buy? That's not what I see from the majority of band directors who are not keyboard specialists, but maybe things are more flush in the Pacific Northwest than other parts of the country. Also, I never go that out of my pedagogy classes. Which high schools or college groups do not care what types of keyboards are used? My experience is that high schools don't really have a ton of money to buy several different types of equipment based on environment. The larger colleges have more money to be picky, but my contacts at many smaller colleges do not have the luxury to have all the best toys for every environment, so they go with what is popular ( IE used by the expert percussionist in WGI/DCI and cost effective). Edited April 4, 2014 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I appreciate your thoroughness, but having experience with using a wide variety of percussion instruments and marimbas I don't want you to completely rely on the description of acoustalon on the website to counter my argument. The acoustalon have a very resonant sound and can project more than rosewood however, no matter what the website says, they act and sound very different from rosewood keys. The fact that acoustalon is advertised for both indoor and outdoor means little to the discussion. It's not like a marimba with acoustalon doesn't work if its inside, so ofcourse... you can say it's for both indoor and outdoor DUH! But, if we're talking about getting the most preferred sound for a marimba in an indoor context, again this comes from having experience in percussion, you appreciate more the sound of rosewood bars. To address each of the descriptions you pulled. If a frame is designed for "outdoor" use then it is, by default, able to be used indoors so this is a default simulation. But in terms of frames its important that you notice that having a field frame is an option and that all marimbas do not automatically have a field frame therefore all marimbas are not automatically best suited for outdoor use. Being able to transport a marimba is a great feature for indoor ensemble and outdoor ensembles so this feature isn't necessarily specific to only outdoor ensembles. And lastly 4'' casters are really small and NOT great for outdoor mobility. Most drum corps have 8 - 10 inch tires on their frames. Check the out the Cavies here and their massive tires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10MUmwfDeeM So through a different context with more information, it does back up what I'm saying. I completely admire your passion for this instrument; it must be your main instrument! I can assure you that most band directors would not be as knowledgeable about the area as you, and as a result, wouldn't be as critical of what I have said. I am sure that your front ensembles and concert keyboard players sound incredible, and I hope that the non-percussionist would be able to appreciate the difference in sound. I confess that I do not have the same amount of appreciation for the subtle differences in sound on the different frames, et cetera. I also wonder if a judge at a district concert would notice the difference between all these different varieties of keyboards unless they were as experienced as you specifically in these keyboards? Wow, this almost sounds like it could be something like a G versus Bb horn debate only with keyboards! Edited April 4, 2014 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 One type of each instrument type of pit instrument could already balance with many of the brass instruments on the field. I will buy your argument that two vibes and three marimbas will sound even fuller, but we're at the stage where a small ensemble is very often more important than the larger ensemble. It is not a correct analogy to compare the pit to a choir the way you have... The pit isn't a "choir", it is a small ensemble within a larger ensemble that is supposed to balance and blend within that larger ensemble until it is time for it to have a feature. When the pit has a feature, the larger ensemble needs to back off and allow the smaller ensemble to take the forefront. Now what we have is a small ensemble that does not always balance within the larger ensemble; it overpowers that larger ensemble and changes the sound of that larger ensemble immensely. In WGI, this isn't a problem, it is a requirement. The "pit" is the larger ensemble. In DCI performing groups this arrangement has changed the balance and sound in ways that many could not have imagined. Still, it would be interesting to just go all out and hear a group with many keyboards on the field with maybe a smaller brassline and see what that is like. It could be innovative, and I would not be opposed to hear a one off of a show that places such an emphasis on the pit in this way. Afterall, they can have pretty much anything in there these days. Imagine a show where there are 65 Guard, 20 Battery (10 Snares, 5 Tenors, 5 Basses), and 30 pit ( many more various keyboards); and only 43 Brass and 2 DMs ( for a 150 total). Could be interesting concept... I know that in 1986 Cadets (4th) performed a show ( Christopher Street from On the Waterfront, Wonderful Town) with very few guard (<10?) and an augmented brassline, so this kind of experimentation has been done before. The last many Blue Devil's show have prominently feature the pit or "front ensemble" for extended periods in their shows as well. So, maybe someone should go crazy one year! I'd be quite ok with hearing one of Musser's Marimba Orchestras actually! I agree that the role of the pit has dramatically changed in drum corps. But I don't necessarily think that the pit shouldn't be heard during their non-featured moments. I think bring up a larger point about the brass line being "more important" than the pit, battery or guard. I think that's interesting that because how we structure corps with 72+ brass players, then it must statistically be that the majority of alumni are brass players... maybe the fans too? And how this plays into that thinking... Maybe, the brass line IS the most important element in a drum corps... But, I don't think that the growth of the pit hasn't taken away from that. Especially since I think great pit writing has the ability to show off the strengths and colors of the pit while also supporting the brass and battery, but not being shy about it, I want to hear them! Playing with instrumentation certainly would be innovative! Also... really risky. Are there really no rules that govern how small your brass line can be in DCI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) I agree that the role of the pit has dramatically changed in drum corps. But I don't necessarily think that the pit shouldn't be heard during their non-featured moments. I think bring up a larger point about the brass line being "more important" than the pit, battery or guard. I think that's interesting that because how we structure corps with 72+ brass players, then it must statistically be that the majority of alumni are brass players... maybe the fans too? And how this plays into that thinking... Maybe, the brass line IS the most important element in a drum corps... But, I don't think that the growth of the pit hasn't taken away from that. Especially since I think great pit writing has the ability to show off the strengths and colors of the pit while also supporting the brass and battery, but not being shy about it, I want to hear them! Playing with instrumentation certainly would be innovative! Also... really risky. Are there really no rules that govern how small your brass line can be in DCI? Haven't you heard, the color guard is the most important element of drumcorps! I agree with you I also "don't think that the growth of the pit hasn't taken away from the brass"! I never said that the pit shouldn't be heard. I said that they should blend better. Big difference. I want to hear most of the pit instruments too. Like I said, I think someone should just put a show out there with the keyboard players being the star for most of the show and have a bunch of them ( as well as the rest of the pit). They're the most technically agile players on the field and it would be a very interesting and innovative twist in the "outdoors" marching arts. The smaller hornline could still put out some decent sound, and the really big color guard could sell the visual side of things. No, there isn't a rule about how small a brassline or any section of a corps can. Check out that 1986 Garfield Cadets show to see what I was talking about with regards to changing up the numbers in each section. Of course they went from 1st the previous year to 4th, but it was an interesting show. Edited April 4, 2014 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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