Jeff Ream Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 See, my thing is that even though they weren't notey, I don't really feel as though they were played all that well either. Granted, I will agree the visual demand was high, but there have been plenty of corps that have placed incredible demand on their members, and not given credit the way some did with the early 2000 Cavaliers. I just really think that many people, judges, fans, etc. just bought into the shock and awe and let them get away with crap that really wasn't that good. Not to take anything away from the members, but those shows were filthy. I couldn't tell you the number of laps I would have had to run or push ups I would have wanted to do with music and drill that was performed that poorly. Not trying to be a hater, just really can't believe how these shows have been given so much credit. Cadets 2000 should have won outright, 2001 BD deserved the Gold, 2002 BD deserved it in my opinion, 2004 SCV should have been 1st in my opinion. Maybe my thoughts are why I could never be a judge though, lol. I'll agree on 2000 and my love of 04 says i should agree. 01 Cavies IMO was better than 02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 well....and let's talk about the part no one will mention. if you box yourself out, you have nowhere to go but 10. I mean BD got to go on last for the last year the defending champion could do so, and they literally had no shot at a drum title before they played a note. 2nd place on his sheet was 19.5, who was 3rd from the end...then Cadets who got the 20. BD was looking at best either 2nd or below going on the field. at least in 2002 there's some spread between Cavies and 2nd place on the various sheets BUT, on the flip side of that argument... What if Garfield was so incredible to the judges who popped them a perfect score (they got perfect in percussion AND GE Percussion) they felt justified giving up a huge number, knowing that at worst that perfect score would tie if BD was just as incredible? While as I judge, thinking logically right now not in the heat of the moment, I can't see myself giving a perfect score to anyone, let alone if there is another group coming up next: at least there is a very low likely hood. But in the moment, if a judge thought a group was 100% maxing out every part of the sheet, who are we to argue (note - we're the internet, and it's our job to argue)? The beauty of performance evaluation is there are zero absolutes, and the second a judge says, "I would NEVER give a perfect score" the judge is failing at his job of approaching a performance with a 100% open mind, ready for absolutely any possible outcome a group gives them. Judging philosophy is always fun to talk about, and the beauty is there isn't an absolute answer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 We're also looking at shows when we are many years past them.... sometimes when you're in the moment and feeling the intangibles of following the corps for the season you remember how a corps' performance made you feel more than how well it was executed. One of my co-teachers once said to me that we spend so much time "cleaning" things no one will ever notice just so it can "feel" like we are better than another corps. Case in point, side by side comparison three years down the road will probably tell you BD was "cleaner" than Crown this year but that's not what I was judging, I was judging the excitement I felt from Crown while watching them steamroll into championships. Now after I view/listen to the show 20,000 times I find I'm less forgiving of things that I was before and I'm no longer in "awe" of their performance, so I have to remind myself at that time, in the moment, I was blown away. 2002 Cavies visually was mind blowing for me and watching it now I'm like 'meh'.... but at the time..... just wow. That's just me, but I need to remind myself of that sometimes. on the flipside 04 Cavies when I competed against them I thought they were awfully dirty.... now I don't care, I'm actually glad they won. It's a show that I play for a lot of "new" drum corps people. It's fun and energetic and at the end of the day the stuff I noticed in the moment doesn't really bother me as much now. There weren't many people marching Cadets tempos in 93, so yeah, feet are messy but at that time...... not a lot of people were even attempting stuff like that. Exactly; one thing that is easy to overlook right now is that we are critical fans who scrutinize video of multi-cam angles that are mastered for optimal viewing & listening on a home entertainment center. Judges have a very myopic, narrowed view and focus when judging specific rubric off of specific captions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TESB Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 We're also looking at shows when we are many years past them.... sometimes when you're in the moment and feeling the intangibles of following the corps for the season you remember how a corps' performance made you feel more than how well it was executed. One of my co-teachers once said to me that we spend so much time "cleaning" things no one will ever notice just so it can "feel" like we are better than another corps. Case in point, side by side comparison three years down the road will probably tell you BD was "cleaner" than Crown this year but that's not what I was judging, I was judging the excitement I felt from Crown while watching them steamroll into championships. Now after I view/listen to the show 20,000 times I find I'm less forgiving of things that I was before and I'm no longer in "awe" of their performance, so I have to remind myself at that time, in the moment, I was blown away. Well I think you're really making the case for that not to be how one judges a corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammaster Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 well....and let's talk about the part no one will mention. if you box yourself out, you have nowhere to go but 10. I mean BD got to go on last for the last year the defending champion could do so, and they literally had no shot at a drum title before they played a note. 2nd place on his sheet was 19.5, who was 3rd from the end...then Cadets who got the 20. BD was looking at best either 2nd or below going on the field. at least in 2002 there's some spread between Cavies and 2nd place on the various sheets I was there. I wasn't impressed with the "perfect" drumline who spent a big part of their show playing nothing at all let alone nothing difficult when they did. Yet the Last corps to go on swept I&E and was playing ZAPPA as their feature which in itself was difficult to play with two drummers and a mallet player let alone a whole drumline! They should have won drums in 2001 also but then...They would have gotten gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 BUT, on the flip side of that argument... What if Garfield was so incredible to the judges who popped them a perfect score (they got perfect in percussion AND GE Percussion) they felt justified giving up a huge number, knowing that at worst that perfect score would tie if BD was just as incredible? While as I judge, thinking logically right now not in the heat of the moment, I can't see myself giving a perfect score to anyone, let alone if there is another group coming up next: at least there is a very low likely hood. But in the moment, if a judge thought a group was 100% maxing out every part of the sheet, who are we to argue (note - we're the internet, and it's our job to argue)? The beauty of performance evaluation is there are zero absolutes, and the second a judge says, "I would NEVER give a perfect score" the judge is failing at his job of approaching a performance with a 100% open mind, ready for absolutely any possible outcome a group gives them. Judging philosophy is always fun to talk about, and the beauty is there isn't an absolute answer! i'd give a perfect score...if no one was to follow them. toughest show i ever judged, 27 bands in a pretty ###### rain at Allentown, I witnessed a HS line perform so amazingly i considered it. I really did. But, as I walked back to the tent where we tried to scrawl numbers and keep the sheets dry, the caption head walked up beside me and said "remember, there's 3 to go yet. So I made sure their number was high, but I had wiggle room. I once on the flip side walked on the field as an instructor not knowing my only two options before we played a note was 1st or 4th. pretty frustrating feeling when I saw the recap later 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 93 Cadets had at least 2 Contra players out of step the entire show, watch the video. Oh, bull. "out of step the entire show" doesn't merit 9.7 out of ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad_MMA Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 ensemble tear and all Garfield '87? Exactly where was there a tear? Your ears must have still been ringing from all that fortissimo spitting and splatting of SCV's "Whole Note High School Halftime" show. Jay Kennedy judged Percussion ENSEMBLE that night, and I'm looking at a copy of his sheet. I wish I knew how to copy/paste a PDF file... It simply says (and I quote): "Unf_ _ _ing believable performance!! <--- yes Thank you" (and gave 10/10) Hardly sounds like a tear anywhere in that adulation. Plus, I've watched/heard the show 4.76 billion times, and there's no tear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Garfield '87? Exactly where was there a tear? Your ears must have still been ringing from all that fortissimo spitting and splatting of SCV's "Whole Note High School Halftime" show. Interesting that the "splitting and splatting whole note high school halftime show" that SCV fielded was only a tenth behind Garfield overall. Tying for the brass and visual trophies, and winning overall GE. If Vanguard's show and corps was so pedestrian in your mind, what does that say about Garfield? Were the only smart judges the ones who were handing out perfect scores? Or could it be that both corps had their strengths and weaknesses? Could it be both corps were very well-received by the judges and audience that night? Could it be that we're talking about two distinctly different shows and corps who were each magnificent in their own way in one of the great showdowns in DCI Finals history? That's the thing about going purely by the numbers. As soon as you hold up one set of numbers as the end-all be-all, you better be prepared to do the same thing with the set of numbers that don't go your way. Yes, the drum judges raved about Garfield, and deservedly so. But that was only one aspect of their show, and other judges were similar in their adulation of the Vanguard in other captions. So no, their's was not simply a "splitting and splatting whole note high school halftime show," and it was not necessary to slam them like that in order to bolster your case for Garfield. They deserve far more respect than you show them here. One more thing about those numbers. I have no problem with judges giving out perfect numbers on their sheets, and I agree with those judges in putting Garfield's drumline in first place, but consider this: If those three percussion judges decided to hand out 9.9's instead of 10.0's, which would still have given Garfield wins in field, ensemble, and GE percussion and the overall percussion trophy... then the Santa Clara Vanguard would have won the DCI Championship outright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Well, this thread has gone about the way I thought it would. Bring out your old grudges and trash other corps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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