Moving Up or Down in DCI Competition - The Data

[BRASSO]

okay, then, what's your vision on how it should work?

It'd work like it has in every other youth competitive sport in the world. It 'd work as intended, ie to add stabilty to the activity, add more participation in the activity ( which naturally in the long run adds more talented marchers, as a result of more Corps growth.), More participation and more Corps growth adds more family, friends to fan base. More Corps and more fans adds to increased visibility in new areas. More stability adds more chances for others to break through the placement class ceiling, the OP is referring to which adds more excitement for fans, which in turn adds to more fan retention as the activity begins to turnaround its atrophy in its growth curve of late.

Or alternatively.. we can do nothing. too. Thats a choice as well .. We can keep the unfettered flow of the activities most experienced talent to the handful going as it has for the last few decades and light candles and hope that by Divine Intervention or some such , we won't have 3 DCI Corps win more than 80% of the future 35 years of DCI Titles ( assuming that DCI is still aroiund and has not more fully and more completely cannibalized itself in the future by then, of course. )

Edited June 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[c mor]

It'd work like it has in every other youth competitive sport in the world. It 'd work as intended, ie to add stabilty to the activity, add more participation in the activity ( which naturally in the long run adds more talented marchers, as a result of more Corps growth.), More participation and more Corps growth adds more family, friends to fan base. More Corps and more fans adds to increased visibility in new areas. More stability adds more chances for others to break through the placement class ceiling, the OP is referring to which adds more excitement for fans, which in turn adds to more fan retention as the activity begins to turnaround its atrophy in its growth curve of late.

Or alternatively.. we can do nothing. too. Thats a choice as well .. We can keep the unfettered flow of the activities most experienced talent to the handful going as it has for the last few decades and light candles and hope that by Divine Intervention or some such , we won't have 3 DCI Corps win more than 80% of the future 35 years of DCI Titles ( assuming that DCI is still aroiund and has not more fully and more completely cannibalized itself in the future by then, of course. )

I was really wondering about the mechanism/process that would be used. Are you talking about a draft?

[BRASSO]

I was really wondering about the mechanism/process that would be used. Are you talking about a draft?

No.. I see no need for " a draft". I think the first step would be t come together to do a feasibility study to determine the pros and cons of such a transfer policy. Consultation and advice could be culled from other similar competitive youth sports to determine what they like about their current transfer policvies and what they might do differently. The goal would be to be in place a system of some degree of controls on marcher movement but not so draconian in nature that it becomes odorous and counterproductive to the goal of freedom for marchers to transfer to some degree ( but not to the unfettered degree they might be used to as DCI's long ingrained" culture" at present). If the elite Corps have the staff we think they have, they will be able to adjust to the transfer rules, just as they have to previous rules, and they still should be able to do just fine. But it should allow the lower placing Corps an opportunity to not only stabilize themselves, but to have a realistic chance of moving up in the future. This brings ,MORE competition, and more competition drives even further the excellence we all say we want... and who wouldn't want to see the very real and exciting possibility of lots of Corps each year fighting it out for a title, rather than just the the same ol' repetitive Corps now that we have every year duking it out for the title ?

Edited June 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

I think at least some corps do give returning vets a break in tuition.

Other than that...

Members are paying for the privilege of marching with a corps. It is incumbent on the corps to create an attractive enough environment so that the member wants to stay put. No member should be penalized for leaving if that is their choice, however. Every person is different in their wants and desires.

It is often posted here that kids cut from choice 'A' top-5 corps should be directed and encouraged to march in another corps that might be more than willing to take them. Absolutely agree that it is a great idea. But...we can't then castigate the member if he or she marches elsewhere and then tries out yet again at choice 'A', and this time makes it. We can't have it both ways. I'm sure the place the person ended up marchnig is still happy they had them for the time that they did belong to the corps. And...some of those who 'settle' (note the quotes) end up being VERY happy with that choice and do not choose to leave down the road.

also kids arent around for years as we were. So if theres some transfer policy it couldnt be very long term.There's no such thing in most cases as long term. You have to look at what TODAYS member is and how they need to be serviced , not look at a policy that didnt work in the past and try to apply to now. Imagine me as a parent spending 3 plus grand a year and my kid not wanting to be where they are...ahhhh dont think so. It could and would IMO do just the opposite and ruin bottom to top.

I will repeat , I have been on the losing side at times and hated losing kids and told them please stay and build here but putting my own wants aside...could I really blame them when time was limited and money scarce.

Edited June 24, 2014 by GUARDLING

[c mor]

No.. I see no need for " a draft". I think the first step would be t come together to do a feasibility study to determine the pros and cons of such a transfer policy. Consultation and advice could be culled from other similar competitive youth sports to determine what they like about their current transfer policvies and what they might do differently. The goal would be to be in place a system of some degree of controls on marcher movement but not so draconian in nature that it becomes odorous and counterproductive to the goal of freedom for marchers to transfer to some degree ( but not to the unfettered degree they might be used to as DCI's long ingrained" culture" at present). If the elite Corps have the staff we think they have, they will be able to adjust to the transfer rules, just as they have to previous rules, and they still should be able to do just fine. But it should allow the lower placing Corps an opportunity to not only stabilize themselves, but to have a realistic chance of moving up in the future. This brings ,MORE competition, and more competition drives even further the excellence we all say we want... and who wouldn't want to see the very real and exciting possibility of lots of Corps each year fighting it out for a title, rather than just the the same ol' repetitive Corps now that we have every year duking it out for the title ?

Is it safe to assume that the current system of corps having contracts with the members prevents them from transferring mid-season?

If so, that leaves only the movement between seasons from lower to higher placing units. Would you implement a set of circumstances wherein movement is not allowed, and another set that must be met in order to move?

I understand the goal of increased competition, and placement variety. I'm unclear on understanding the specifics. Although I can't see how it would work for drum corps, a draft seems to me the best way to spread talent evenly.

And then Guardling's post - "Kid's aren't around for years" - In Georgia, I don't believe many high school students are in drum corps. School starts the first week of August and band programs happen in summer. There are a lot of hurdles. All that to say, in most cases, without the existence of lower corps aplenty, students today have only 3-4 years of marching eligibility after high school. I think it would be a downward spiral to place restrictions on that 3-4 years.

[GUARDLING]

Is it safe to assume that the current system of corps having contracts with the members prevents them from transferring mid-season?

If so, that leaves only the movement between seasons from lower to higher placing units. Would you implement a set of circumstances wherein movement is not allowed, and another set that must be met in order to move?

I understand the goal of increased competition, and placement variety. I'm unclear on understanding the specifics. Although I can't see how it would work for drum corps, a draft seems to me the best way to spread talent evenly.

And then Guardling's post - "Kid's aren't around for years" - In Georgia, I don't believe many high school students are in drum corps. School starts the first week of August and band programs happen in summer. There are a lot of hurdles. All that to say, in most cases, without the existence of lower corps aplenty, students today have only 3-4 years of marching eligibility after high school. I think it would be a downward spiral to place restrictions on that 3-4 years.

decades in this activity , I dont think I ever saw someone leaving their corps to go to another during the season. I have seen kids quit for sure BUT as I have said, there isn't a director or staff who wants a kid that doesnt want to be with them. I have seen many many times this has happened for one reason or another a kid stayed when they didnt want to and it was ALWAYS a disaster and more trouble than it was worth. It turns from a positive member to a negative , very fas

It was also mentioned in another post that they believe no matter what the talent without a name staff it doesnt matter how high the talent level. well ,does this mean a transfer policy with staff also? if not then and you believe this last statement then the other with kid transfers wont mean a thing.

Edited June 24, 2014 by GUARDLING

[BRASSO]

Is it safe to assume that the current system of corps having contracts with the members prevents them from transferring mid-season?

No. Have you ever read one of those Corps Contracts ? There is not a thing written in any of them that I'm aware of ( unless they've changed them ) that either A) restricts a Corps from dropping you from the Corps at will ( with some level refund possible depending upon the circumstances ) or B) restricts a marcher from leaving the Corps too for any reason, and at ANY time ( "midseason" or not ) and then doing whatever he or she wants to do.. up to and including marching with another Corps. ( Cadets have reportedly had marchers transfer from marcihing with the DCI Cadets and go march DCA Cadets2 in the same summer season for just one example of this. )

Edited June 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

Is it safe to assume that the current system of corps having contracts with the members prevents them from transferring mid-season?

If so, that leaves only the movement between seasons from lower to higher placing units. Would you implement a set of circumstances wherein movement is not allowed, and another set that must be met in order to move?

I understand the goal of increased competition, and placement variety. I'm unclear on understanding the specifics. Although I can't see how it would work for drum corps, a draft seems to me the best way to spread talent evenly.

And then Guardling's post - "Kid's aren't around for years" - In Georgia, I don't believe many high school students are in drum corps. School starts the first week of August and band programs happen in summer. There are a lot of hurdles. All that to say, in most cases, without the existence of lower corps aplenty, students today have only 3-4 years of marching eligibility after high school. I think it would be a downward spiral to place restrictions on that 3-4 years.

yes there are things in contracts. I have winter and summer contracts ( many the same ) and it gives dates , timelines for payments, what is expected of a member as well as what the member should expect. Refunds are usually not given unless they were in for a week or so or just through training paid a big chunk then I know of corps that gave some kind of a refund. remember, for the time they are there, they are fed, taught, housed, thats not cheap to do. If someone wants out of a contract and the season has not started usually a director wont have to much of an issue with it. After everything started? PROBLEM and dont believe it happens. Many times the kid will just wait if they could to the next season. BD might have transfers from B corps to WC corps, even Cadets to Cadets 2. SCV one to another................same corps pretty much and their own business as far as flexability.

[BRASSO]

So we are clear.. there is NO established transfer policy in place in DCI..as such, there is no restrictions in place whatsoever for a marcher to be unable transfer to another Corps AT ANY TIME. There is also history of it being rare and practicality at play here, of course. But there is nothing that prevents a Corps from taking marcher from another Corps.. that might even be a top performer from that Corps... into their Corps, up to, and including Finals Night. No way thats even permitted to not be addressed as a contingency in every other youth competitive sport in the entire world. Not having a transfer policy in place, means exactly what it means.. " no transfer policy in place ". And as near as I can tell, there is virtually no interest in having one either in DCI. Which, as I said above, must seem weirder than weird to just about every other youth competitive team sport organization in the world.

Edited June 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[c mor]

So we are clear.. there is NO established transfer policy in place in DCI..as such, there is no restrictions in place whatsoever for a marcher to be unable transfer to another Corps AT ANY TIME. There is also history of it being rare and practicality at play here, of course. But there is nothing that prevents a Corps from taking marcher from another Corps.. that might even be a top performer from that Corps... into their Corps, up to, and including Finals Night. No way thats even permitted to not be addressed as a contingency in every other youth competitive sport in the entire world. Not having a transfer policy in place, means exactly what it means.. " no transfer policy in place ". And as near as I can tell, there is virtually no interest in having one either in DCI. Which, as I said above, must seem weirder than weird to just about every other youth competitive team sport organization in the world.

That may be a slight exaggeration...

My only point would be, "Fine, issue a rule that prohibits members transferring from a lower corps to a higher corps after some date...5/31 say."

There, done. Now, will that help last years 10th place corps move up to 5th?

You said it was theoretically possible, but then called me ridiculous for asking if it was a real problem. Now you bring it up again in this post. I'm having a hard time following what it is you're really trying to achieve.

You ask me to agree to something about which I know nothing. I don't have a clue as to any rules of DCI. If you say there are no such policies then I have no reason to doubt you. If that was your whole point then...cool. I was merely following a topic of discussion on transfer policies creating increased competitive corps placements, which seemed to me at the time something valuable to at least consider.

Edited June 25, 2014 by c mor