Moving Up or Down in DCI Competition - The Data

[Liahona]

Some people Brasso holds the opinion the Blue Devils should pay the Cadets for all the members that transfer to Concord, sort of as a "training fee."

FTFY

ughh why is strikethrough not working? the proper bbcodes are in the message body AND it shows up in the editor preview. But when you post the message it disappears. (the one you see working is an image. )

Well I inherently think that the transfer policy is not a bad idea per se...the real problem is I think that a lot of the kids have a dream to march a certain corps and that would inhibit that. Kids have hopped ship for decades and I don't see any rule supporting this EVER passing...unless perhaps the economic incentive of placement is removed....then it would be a matter of ego's IMO...

[BRASSO]

Agree.

I think the biggest reason for a corps' decline is the loss of belief in the program.

Lots of Corps were " True Believers " in their Corps over the years... they just ran out of moolah. Thats the predominent reason they inherited a spot in the ever expanding Drum Corps Graveyard.

[BRASSO]

Well I inherently think that the transfer policy is not a bad idea per se...the real problem is I think that a lot of the kids have a dream to march a certain corps and that would inhibit that. ..

While true, is in not also true that lots of top Corps inhibit that dream each and every offseason by telling thousands of prospective campers :.. " not happenin' here for ya kid but thanks for the fee, and good luck to ya ! ( they cut them ). There are things that could be done to allow a marcher his or her dream in that Corps if he or her was talented... but... its off the table... as few if any are interested in even discussing sensible and reasonable transfer policies ( which incidentally, Drum Corps Circuits used to have before DCI.. and on the whole it seemed to work well... the same as all the other youth competitive sports have throughout the world, and have almost sence the Dawn of Man... but nobody wants to hear of it... or even consider it.... so..... its onward Cadevaliers for the next 35 years, imo ! )

Edited June 23, 2014 by BRASSO

[ShortAndFast]

While true, is in not also true that lots of top Corps inhibit that dream each and every offseason by telling thousands of prospective campers :.. " not happenin' here for ya kid but thanks for the fee, and good luck to ya ! ( they cut them ). There are things that could be done to allow a marcher his or her dream in that Corps if he or her was talented... but... its off the table... as few if any are interested in even discussing sensible and reasonable transfer policies ( which incidentally, Drum Corps Circuits used to have before DCI.. and on the whole it seemed to work well... the same as all the other youth competitive sports have throughout the world, and have almost sence the Dawn of Man... but nobody wants to hear of it... or even consider it.... so..... its onward Cadevaliers for the next 35 years, imo ! )

Many corps refer those cut to other drum corps, but the reality is that it's the prospective member's time and money. If s/he doesn't want to spend a summer and a lot of cash marching at a lower placing group, there's not much you can do about it.

[GUARDLING]

Many corps refer those cut to other drum corps, but the reality is that it's the prospective member's time and money. If s/he doesn't want to spend a summer and a lot of cash marching at a lower placing group, there's not much you can do about it.

yup. I for one would love to see kids stay and make a lower corps into a top cops BUT the reality of this is this will never happen..1.They pay (alot ) and can not be told. 2. members dont spend years like we did BITD to build something ( so it makes it very hard and kids wants the experience of being a finalist before aging out ) 3. Corps need to find a way to make it more attractive in ALL WAYS so a member wants to take a chance of possible success ( whatever success means to a person or corps)

Now I do think a strict rule should be in place for kids who dont pay as they should and should NOT be allowed to move on to any corps without paying IN FULL. I think it needs to also cross over from winter programs.

PS: the amount of transfer kids year to year ( which I do interact with ) is minimal and I do think wouldnt make much of a difference as far as success. Those upper corps just know how to make a raw kid into a winner and give them all tools to do it. Some dont buy that but it's very true. Now if some are saying noone ever moves then sure many corps might be killed off., BUT I would bet corps like Cadets, BD, Crown etc etc. would find a way to get all the newbies with the highest talent to go there. SO GUESS WHAT, they still win

Edited June 23, 2014 by GUARDLING

[va9590jm]

PS: the amount of transfer kids year to year ( which I do interact with ) is minimal and I do think wouldnt make much of a difference as far as success. Those upper corps just know how to make a raw kid into a winner and give them all tools to do it. Some dont buy that but it's very true. Now if some are saying noone ever moves then sure many corps might be killed off., BUT I would bet corps like Cadets, BD, Crown etc etc. would find a way to get all the newbies with the highest talent to go there. SO GUESS WHAT, they still win

I think the numbers might be more than you make it out to be. Even if it is only lets say, 3-4 people from one corps moving to say BD in one year, it adds up. Especially if most of those aren't age outs. If that happens for a few years, after a few years, you have 10-15 people that all marched one corps now all in BD. Multiply that by each corps from 10-18, and that's actually quite a lot. I would love to see more detailed information from all corps as to how much of the membership has marched at other corps, and how long, and how many are rookies. I know DCI used to do a survey gathering age information and some various other random information, but I don't believe any of that was included. I would like to see a good detailed survey. Might help pinpoint some more ways for corps to improve operations and increase retention.

[GUARDLING]

I think the numbers might be more than you make it out to be. Even if it is only lets say, 3-4 people from one corps moving to say BD in one year, it adds up. Especially if most of those aren't age outs. If that happens for a few years, after a few years, you have 10-15 people that all marched one corps now all in BD. Multiply that by each corps from 10-18, and that's actually quite a lot. I would love to see more detailed information from all corps as to how much of the membership has marched at other corps, and how long, and how many are rookies. I know DCI used to do a survey gathering age information and some various other random information, but I don't believe any of that was included. I would like to see a good detailed survey. Might help pinpoint some more ways for corps to improve operations and increase retention.

I do think your numbers maybe 10 or 15 could be right and sure that can harm a corps , especially if they came from the same place,( unlikely ) but if 15 kids leaving is hurting a corps of 150 members something else is wrong. Top corps lose more than that in age outs every year. What I have seen happen to a few lower corps is maybe a handful leave to go elsewhere, some age out, many burn out sometimes because of money or promises not kept. There is a reality to this unfortunately. I sit at auditions every year and hear the same old stories. This also includes corps that have lost some pretty good up and coming staff members.

do I think it is an issue, to a point yes, do I think it is usually more of an issue on the corps who is losing people and staff YES. Blame can be put on many things including some who want instant success BUT one needs to look in their own backyard before blaming their lack of success on someone else. If a corps truly has their ducks in a row, less of this may happen but we have always had this. I think its more obvious now because there are less corps. Some will say OH we had a policy bitd that prevented it..AHHHH ok , there was ( just like today ) many many ways to get around something and many did.

You are right though, retention is key and that gets harder every year for some. look at some of the corps that never get above a number, lose many of their members and staff every year BUT refuse to change within their own corps. Who is the blame there?

Edited June 23, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Lincoln]

Edit - frick I'm getting old. Wrong thread.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Lincoln

[corpsband]

yup. I for one would love to see kids stay and make a lower corps into a top cops BUT the reality of this is this will never happen..1.They pay (alot ) and can not be told. 2. members dont spend years like we did BITD to build something ( so it makes it very hard and kids wants the experience of being a finalist before aging out ) 3. Corps need to find a way to make it more attractive in ALL WAYS so a member wants to take a chance of possible success ( whatever success means to a person or corps)

Now I do think a strict rule should be in place for kids who dont pay as they should and should NOT be allowed to move on to any corps without paying IN FULL. I think it needs to also cross over from winter programs.

PS: the amount of transfer kids year to year ( which I do interact with ) is minimal and I do think wouldnt make much of a difference as far as success. Those upper corps just know how to make a raw kid into a winner and give them all tools to do it. Some dont buy that but it's very true. Now if some are saying noone ever moves then sure many corps might be killed off., BUT I would bet corps like Cadets, BD, Crown etc etc. would find a way to get all the newbies with the highest talent to go there. SO GUESS WHAT, they still win

so true.

[IllianaLancerContra]

Love the data that was posted above by N.E. Brigand. Such a great way to look at the consistency, or lack of, with each of the corps. I often ask myself, what happened when some of those big jumps happen (pos. or neg.)? For instance:

+8 -- 1982 Suncoast Sound (21st> 13th)

In this case it was clearly Suncoast having a great staff when it came to music arrangement, drill, show design, and their ability to teach. Suncoast would eventually jump into the top 12, getting as high as 6th I think. Do they make this move to 13th because they out-perform their competition? Yes. Are they also the beneficiary of some corps losing staff and/or perhaps losing their way? Yes.

+6 -- 1980 Cadets (16th>10th)

This is another case of great staff and some miracle funding. Dr. Richard Santo (corps director at that time) saves the Cadets from bankruptcy and brings in a fabulous staff of teachers and designers. The collective of these teachers and designers would go on to lead Garfield to 3 World Titles in a row (83-85), and another in 1987. They would re-construct what we thought of as design and movement, and they became the first corps from the East Coast to win a DCI World Title. Remember that most experts were certain that 27th Lancers would be that corps. Clearly, this jump was the indication of great staff, some financial backing, and smart director who made the right moves, and the Legacy of Garfield which perhaps allowed it to stave off extinction. The jump here had more to do with Garfield simply beating the competition.

+6 -- 1981 Santa Clara Vanguard (7th>1st)

This one is a little different. SCV was a POWER through the entire 70s. They were a potentially top 2 corps every year. Their 7th place finish in 1980 was not a sign of bad performance or weakness on the part of the staff, but they simply gambled on show design (which ultimately prevailed years later from an influential standpoint) and had to make too many adjustments all summer. When they came back in 1981 and won a DCI title, with an extremely musical horn and drum line I might add, it had more to do with SCV being themselves. If anything the drop to 7th in 1980 was the shocker. SCV rising back-up and winning in 1981 was par for the course.

+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

A jump this big almost always indicates change in staff and/or philosophy. That was the case for Blooo. In 1984 the corps had financial issues, even almost folded. Ted Swaldo stepped in around then, late 1984/85. Made big changes, infused money, started a bingo game, you name it. In 1986 they had better infrastructure, better staff, and the scores began to show it. They simply out-performed many corps that had traditionally beat them in the past, and the Bluecoats made a loud statement that they were gunning for top 12. They got there, and now they are a perennial top 6 corps, with some years in the top 5, even a 3rd place finish in 2010. This year looks promising!!!! Could we finally have a DCI World Title in Canton? Time will tell.

+5 -- 1987 Phantom Regiment (10th>5th)

-6 -- 1989 Madison Scouts (1st>7th)

These two instances are polar opposites to me. Phantom was consistently a top 5 corps from 1977 - 1984. In 1985 they simply fell behind in drill design, and their ambitious show for the 85 year never materialized. One year later, in 1986, they fell from 8th to 10th. Why? After all, much of their staff was still the same. Had they really forgotten how to teach or design shows? No. But the dynamics of drum corps had drastically changed with Garfield in 1983, 84, and 85. Keeping up their unique style at this time presented a problem, and the 86 show never materialized and they could never clean it (too much tweaking). When they do the White Ballet show of 1987 (including rep from this year--Swan Lake) it was Phantom finding their voice again, while also upgrading demand in visual (drill and GE). They were actually 3rd after semifinals and I felt that's where they belonged, but they had a rough Finals performance.

With Madison, they had typically been a 5th to 7th place corps in the mid to late 80s. Their World Title in 1988 felt like a once-in-a-lifetime show (even though they did have a title in 1975). Had the staff changed? No. Did they not know how to program a show? No. They had fabulous staff, but it was a staff that put entertainment above all else, even over scores and placements. When they won the title in 1988 it just seemed like everything clicked, and the stars aligned as well. European tour for 2 weeks, excellent literature, had a 3rd place drum line, and boy did they clean the marching by summer's end. But in 1989 they took some chances, concentrated on entertainment, and still produced a quality show, but one that was more indicative of their avg. placement in the late 80s.

There are many more examples, but when I see those kinds of jumps (+/-) I am reminded that something behind the scenes caused it to happen.

Edited by jwillis35, Today, 08:53 AM.

In 1985 Phantom had experienced a considerable age-out from 84 - and the replacements were on average real young. In many respects it was just too much show for them to execute at the level expected.

It is interesting how back in the 70's corps could swing back & forth 10-20 places with ease. Granted there were far more corps back then, but I wonder if, say there were 45 world-class these days, would we see these swings?