Do scores START too low?

[How_Will_It_End?]

This has been on my mind for a long time, and I hope I'm able to clearly convey my thoughts.

I've seen a lot of discussions on slotting and/or discrepancy on scores. But has anyone ever considered that scores start out too low in the first place? For example, (and I'll be using two of my favorite corps so that i don't want anyone to think this is a rant) tonight, Crossmen scored a 75.00; In their first competition, they scored a 62.20, and Blue Devils won that show with a score of 73.20. Are the Crossmen of tonight really 1.8 points better than Blue Devils of 3 weeks ago? That's not my main question, even I know the answer is absolutely not. But why can't scores start out higher? I personally believe that if Blue Devils opening show was somehow performed on Prelims night in Indy, it would score AT LEAST an 85.

This is my only beef with scores. I'd love to hear someones input so that I don't have a beef anymore with the scores or judging system. Don't get me wrong, it's not killing me, I just don't get it...

[geluf]

The thing about scores is they aren't really static representations of show quality/progress/whatever you like. Scores are an elastic system designed to allow comparison of gradually improving quality and spreads between corps at the same show.

Part of this is psychological, for sure. Generally, we want to see numbers go up as the season progresses.

[flammaster]

well I have to say that I have seen a few open class corps shows that I feel were way under scored compared to other shows that were not nearly as good yet scored higher and continue to score higher.

[BRASSO]

Scores are merely point differntial spreads between Corps on that given nite. Supposedly, scores from previous shows are irrelevant. So theoretically, BD could have scored a 76.15 tonite( instead of a 85.15 ).... Bluecoats a 75.10 ( instead of a 85.10 ).... Boston a 66.65 ( instead of 76.65 )..... Spirit a 62.50 ( instead of a 72.50 ).... and Jersey Surf a 53.65 ( instead of a 63.65 )..... and it would have been perfectly valid. But we know that in reality and in practice, it does not work out this way.... judges do gradations that unexplainably move upward for Corps ( with a backslide here and there along the way in a few instances for Corps). Its all subjective and the more one tries to understand it, the more confusing it gets. But in the end, the judges do seem to get it right by Championships within a placement of each of the Corps, imo, and all Corps except for 2 or 3 wind up within 2 or 3 placement positions of their previous placement the season before.

Edited July 9, 2014 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

if you truly judge the show of the day, there's no guarantee scores should or could go up from the day before. Plus realize during the season, a corps may spend a week really hammering one part of the show, while all but ignoring the rest of it....so some parts may see growth, but not all of it.

[How_Will_It_End?]

I get it now, thanks guys!

[HornTeacher]

Since you opened that up, BRASSO (and I am in full agreement with everything you said), following are the placements for the 22 World Class Corps -- the first list is based on that Corps' first score of the year, and the second based upon the highest score to date for each Corps. Parenthetically, I've supplied the point improvement each Corps has made through the first 3 weeks (or so) of the season.

Place Opening Score Highest To-Date

1 Blue Devils 73.2 Blue Devils 86.2 ( + 13.0 )

2 Bluecoats 72.8 Bluecoats 85.15 ( + 12.35 )

3 Cadets 72.1 Cadets 84.7 ( + 12.6 )

4 Crown 70.8 Crown 84.1 ( +13.3 )

5 SCV 70.15 SCV 83.3 ( + 13.15 )

6 Phantom 68.3 Cavaliers 82.2 ( + 14.9 )

7 Cavaliers 67.3 Phantom 80.45 ( +12.15 )

8 Boston Cru. 66.4 Blue Knights 79.7 ( + 14.55 )

9 Scouts 66.2 Scouts 76.95 ( + 10.75 )

10 Oregon Cru. 66.0 Boston Cru. 76.65 ( +10.25 )

11 Blue Knights 65.15 Blue Stars 75.3 ( + 11.5 )

12 Academy (tie) 63.8 Crossmen 75.0 ( + 12.8 )

13 Blue Stars (tie) 63.8 Troopers 73.4 ( + 11.7 )

14 Jersey Surf 62.6 SOA 72.85 ( +12.55 )

15 Crossmen 62.2 Colts 71.4 ( + 11.0)

16 Troopers 61.7 Oregon Cru. 68.9 ( + 2.9 )

17 Colts 60.4 Academy 66.1 ( + 2.3 )

18 SOA 60.3 Jersey Surf 64.6 ( + 2.0 )

19 Pacific Crest 59.45 Mandarins 64.5 ( + 6.6 )

20 Mandarins 57.9 Pacific Crest 63.7 ( + 4.25 )

21 Cascades 55.1 Cascades 61.0 ( + 5.9 )

22 Pioneer 47.5 Pioneer 60.9 ( + 13.4 )

What does all of this prove? Absolutely nothing (except that I obviously have FAR too much time on my hands !! ). However, it IS interesting to note that while the Corps which started their competitive season far later than the others ( those being the Oregon Crusaders, Academy, Jersey Surf, Mandarins, Pacific Crest, and Cascades ) have an expected smaller improvement score (shorter time period of competing), some of them ( Oregon Crusaders, Academy, and Jersey Surf) had opening scores which were quite competitive with the opening scores of many groups who are now (also as expected) scoring higher -- or at least have achieved a higher "high for the season" score. I also find it interesting that there has been no movement to date in Corps placement (except for the Phantom/Cavalier switch in 6th and 7th) in the first 7 placements.

Just thought I'd throw this out there...who knows -- it may be involved in a Jeopardy question years from now.

Edited July 9, 2014 by HornTeacher

[N.E. Brigand]

I personally believe that if Blue Devils opening show was somehow performed on Prelims night in Indy, it would score AT LEAST an 85.

So you think tonight's BD performance, which is nearly three weeks better, would score a 90 in Prelims? I wonder. Plenty of mistakes in BD's show tonight, I thought (just got back from Ft. Wayne), that I can't recall seeing in a corps that was breaking 90 in championships week. (Not that it's not a fine show; it certainly is.)

[HornTeacher]

You know...in reviewing my "rankings" post, it has occurred to me that there MIGHT be some ramifications in all of this -- especially for those Corps who will ultimately end up in the 9th-14th place positions come Indy.

A case in point: on 6/18, the Troopers opened their season with a 61.7. On 7/3 (two weeks later), the Oregon Crusaders opened their season with a 66.0. Now....does that mean that the Crusaders' opening show was 4.3 points better than the Troopers' opening show? I would venture that it wasn't -- but then again, I may be totally wrong. However, If that theory (or belief) happens to be basically true, then what would the Troopers' score have been if they had opened their season on 7/3 with the performance they actually gave 2 weeks earlier? And if it was better, how MUCH better? Would that same show have opened their season with a score of 67? 68? 69? Higher?

Not wearing my fandom's heart on my sleeve here (for I could make the same point about other Corps currently in the 11th-15th positions)...but is it not conceivable that, for those Corps who end up fighting for those last couple of Finals positions, they would be starting their season 7, 8, or 9 points higher than their actual opening scores -- IF they were to open their seasons on a later date? Heck, Academy (which opened on 6/26) had a first time score which was higher than those of the Colts, Troopers, Crossmen, and Spirit, and tied the same opening score as the Blue Stars -- all groups who are now ahead of them.

Sorry for the long-winded opinion. I just found (and probably will continue to find) it an interesting question.

This is not in any way an attempt at denigrating the Oregon Crusader or Academy organizations; my point is simply that it apparently doesn't hold true that a Corps -- ANY Corps -- must work it's way up from the bottom, no matter when they start their season. And therein lies the mystery of "the numbers."

Edited July 9, 2014 by HornTeacher

[DAvery]

The thing about scores is they aren't really static representations of show quality/progress/whatever you like. Scores are an elastic system designed to allow comparison of gradually improving quality and spreads between corps at the same show.

Part of this is psychological, for sure. Generally, we want to see numbers go up as the season progresses.

I have not seen a sheet in a few years, but do they still use the boxes? Box 1 is the highest on down to box 5. The boxes listed the skills that needed to be displayed to score in that box, or score range. If they do, wouldn't the score be a measurement against a standard? And if it is then a 75 now would be better than a 65 at any time, past or future. Edited July 9, 2014 by DAvery