Crowdsourcing show design

[Tim K]

Really awesome idea and I agree the corps should try this.

On a side note, it's funny how you use Cadets 2012 as an example because that is one of my favorite modern Cadets shows (post 2000). Just disappointing that DCI couldn't secure the rights to the narration at the end.

It's the responsibility of the corps, not DCI to secure rights. But I agree with you about the merits of 12.25. The mp3 download makes great holiday listening.

[zigzigZAG]

Great idea. I think Ballet choreographers should crowd source ideas for their work as well. I mean, the professional choreographer can't POSSIBLY be more creative than his/her fans can they?

Give me a break.

I gave you multiple examples in other areas of art (such as architecture) and business and design where multiple bids (i.e. crowdsourcing) or open innovation (finding the best people outsourced to take on certain projects) in industry have been highly successful.

And then you bring up ballet? Can't possibly find a more marginal art form, run by dictatorial and singular men, mostly. Whatever. No ballet company in the country, not even New York, can sustain itself without performing a decades-old hand-me-down choreography of The Nutcracker. I have a friend in the NYCB orchestra, and she performs that ballet something like 120 times a season. That one retread choreography is responsible for about 95% of their annual ticket sales. They don't even need a choreographer to survive as a company, actually.

You want to cast as wide a net as possible to get as many ideas as possible, then go from there. I'm not saying that DCI corps should let a stranger take over all their design, just solicit ideas and show concepts from outside. How could anyone object to that?

[zigzigZAG]

It's the responsibility of the corps, not DCI to secure rights. But I agree with you about the merits of 12.25. The mp3 download makes great holiday listening.

Holiday listening, maybe. But in August, no way.

They could have come up with a better concept.

Cadets should be pushing the envelope, introducing new music, new show concepts, every year.

[Tim K]

While I think that fans could have great input as to what they would like to see and what could work, the ultimate design has to be done by professionals who know how it could work, and in the case of drum corps, could craft a show that works for the audience and the judges. Also, in out minds all kinds of things could work. I've often suggested on threads with show design ideas a Gilbert and Sullivan themed show for many valid reasons. One, it has not been done on a grand scale so it would be original. The music is great but difficult which makes it challenging. There would be lots of room for humor. Amateur and professional theater groups do Gilbert and Sullivan to filled houses so there's a great chance audiences would love it. I also know the music and scenes I'd love to see used. The show has yet to happen, and my guess is it's not the idea that is bad, but if it could have worked, it would probably have been done by now, and what would work in my head might not work in reality and a good designer would know this, so while I applaud this populist idea, I'm not sure it would work.

[Cappybara]

Holiday listening, maybe. But in August, no way.

They could have come up with a better concept.

Cadets should be pushing the envelope, introducing new music, new show concepts, every year.

Your confusing opinion with fact. Step down from the podium, my friend.

[actucker]

I gave you multiple examples in other areas of art (such as architecture) and business and design where multiple bids (i.e. crowdsourcing) or open innovation (finding the best people outsourced to take on certain projects) in industry have been highly successful.

And then you bring up ballet? Can't possibly find a more marginal art form, run by dictatorial and singular men, mostly. Whatever. No ballet company in the country, not even New York, can sustain itself without performing a decades-old hand-me-down choreography of The Nutcracker. I have a friend in the NYCB orchestra, and she performs that ballet something like 120 times a season. That one retread choreography is responsible for about 95% of their annual ticket sales. They don't even need a choreographer to survive as a company, actually.

You want to cast as wide a net as possible to get as many ideas as possible, then go from there. I'm not saying that DCI corps should let a stranger take over all their design, just solicit ideas and show concepts from outside. How could anyone object to that?

Your architecture example is flawed in several ways. These designs are outsourced to qualified architects, not random building lovers on the street. The best design is chosen from those bids because few companies requiring a building keep an architect on staff. Its called free lance contracting. In the case of drum corps, each corps has a qualified and professional design staff because they need a show designed every year.

You could substitute any profession for the ballet example. Doctors don't outsource their treatments to construction workers. Theoretical physicists don't ask dentists for ideas on their theories. American idol has yet to turn out a decent musician because people who don't know anything about music vote on the winners. The fact is, we have experts in particular fields for a reason. Everyone else would do well to shut up and let the experts do their jobs.

[Kamarag]

It's the responsibility of the corps, not DCI to secure rights. But I agree with you about the merits of 12.25. The mp3 download makes great holiday listening.

Not quite. It's up to the corps to secure arranging and performance rights, but it is indeed DCI's responsibility to secure media and synchronization rights.

[jjeffeory]

What has been most excruciating for me to see in the last couple decades is corps with championship talent dragged down by pedestrian, or sometimes bone-headed design decisions made by a very small group of people who have been at the design game for years, and who seem to struggle to be brilliant year in and year out. As you'd expect.

Why hasn't any corps design team had the creativity, vision, and faith in its fans and FMM's to crowdsource its design? Or at least to float or exchange ideas and then have the guts to set egos aside and come up with a new design when

I'll use the Cadets as an example: You can go back and read these forums when design themes and music was announced for several shows over the last decade or so, and most people reacted with apathy, and even dismay, to certain shows when they were announced in the fall. Those shows didn't end up winning, to put it mildly.

I mean, you just KNOW that certain show design packages are going to be a drag on a corps. Did anyone in the universe think that a Christmas music show would ever win gold or be a fan favorite? Clearly the design team didn't think or care to ask anyone for input before announcing this design concept, and the marching members had to live with it, or worse, suffer from it.

Great show designs get an entire corps to perform at the highest level, even performing over their heads, and beating corps who have on average better across-the-board talent, but whose design is dragging them down. Everyone knows which couple of shows this year have the best design, and everyone knows that those corps will end up with gold and silver this year. Deservedly.

We've seen steps toward crowdsourcing made in the past. Look at the Cadets logo, which is among the best out there. That was developed using a crowdsourcing campaign. They got submissions from dozens of fans and FMM's, and chose the best. If I recall correctly, they also used "the crowd" to help make the decision.

Decisions about the design of major architecture projects, or product designs, or corporate image packages, and many other areas, are basically crowdsourced all the time. We use talent contests, advertise for job openings, as a standard, instead of only relying on in-house talent. For a major building, it's common that a few hundred top architecture firms submit designs, and a team of creatives and the stakeholders select the best. Could you imagine how crappy our architecture would be if the stakeholders and executives were also the designers?

Why not outsource design as the same way as above? There are many, many talented designers out there with great ideas, from HS band directors to college graduate students in music to fans to the next great DCI design visionaries who just haven't had their shot yet. There are also many amateurs with great ideas that a design team could take forward and build a great show around. Why not vastly expand your design talent pool?

I can think of a number of shows in recent years that have suffered considerably - and by that we mean the marching members suffer and struggle unfairly with a design package that makes it impossible for them to be their best - because of such close-minded, in-house design decisions being made.

If I were a corps director who want to do the best for his members, and generate the buzz of the year for 2015, which helps recruitment, I'd do the following:

1. Announce that the 2015 campaign will be crowdsourced asap and get their fans thinking. A show design concept need only be a couple pages long - theme, music, uniform concepts, how the design could be integrated into drill, body movement, whatever. They should announce the procedure too - submission deadlines, format for submissions, etc. Crowdsourcing need not be fully public either, just involve as many people as possible. Corps do like to keep a certain amount of secrecy, I realize.

2. Float the top-10 show concepts and design ideas with their fans and see which generates the most buzz among the crowd, and by buzz, I mean not just popularity, but the amount of inspiration in the form of additional ideas suggested for a certain concept. Several of those top-10 concepts could even be by the design team and corps management themselves, though don't need to be identified as such.

3. Commit to the principle that they are willing to scrap everything and change course completely even in late Fall if the crowd doesn't like where the design is going.

I'm 100% confident that the above would work, because it works in many areas outside of DCI.

So why haven't we seen this yet? Ego? Stubbornness? Lack of vision?

In any year, at least 5 corps have the talent to win. It's show design that holds them back. So which corps will take the next step to greatly increase the probability that they will have championship design next year?

Cadets did Crowd source show ideas a couple of years ago. I'm not sure they went with any of the ideas, but they did start something.

[zigzigZAG]

Your architecture example is flawed in several ways. These designs are outsourced to qualified architects, not random building lovers on the street. The best design is chosen from those bids because few companies requiring a building keep an architect on staff. Its called free lance contracting. In the case of drum corps, each corps has a qualified and professional design staff because they need a show designed every year.

You could substitute any profession for the ballet example. Doctors don't outsource their treatments to construction workers. Theoretical physicists don't ask dentists for ideas on their theories. American idol has yet to turn out a decent musician because people who don't know anything about music vote on the winners. The fact is, we have experts in particular fields for a reason. Everyone else would do well to shut up and let the experts do their jobs.

Again, and I don't know why this is unclear, I'm suggesting that corps design teams solicit SHOW CONCEPTS - not complete show designs - from anyone willing to offer one and work out a concept in some detail. The design team would be responsible for developing that concept into a complete show design. They could decide to include the original concept's developer in that process, or not.

What's the harm in casting a much wider net for show concepts and ideas? Do you really think that five people in a room can develop as many good ideas as 50 or 100 people? (And since you mentioned construction workers, by "people" I'm talking not about random schmucks gorging at the all-you-can-eat wing night, or elderly men with oxygen tanks feeding quarters into slot machines. I'm talking about people with DCI experience, music training, just not paid members of the staff. I mean, who else would work out a show design other than those with great experience, training, interest, and an idea or ideas to elaborate?

Edited August 4, 2014 by zigzigZAG

[Cappybara]

Again, and I don't know why this is unclear, I'm suggesting that corps design teams solicit SHOW CONCEPTS - not complete show designs - from anyone willing to offer one and work out a concept in some detail. The design team would be responsible for developing that concept into a complete show design. They could decide to include the original concept's developer in that process, or not.

What's the harm in casting a much wider net for show concepts and ideas? Do you really think that five people in a room can develop as many good ideas as 50 or 100 people? (And since you mentioned construction workers, by "people" I'm talking not about random schmucks gorging at the all-you-can-eat wing night, or elderly men with oxygen tanks feeding quarters into slot machines. I'm talking about people with DCI experience, music training, just not paid members of the staff. I mean, who else would work out a show design other than those with great experience, training, interest, and an idea or ideas to elaborate?

This. The issue isn't whether normal people are qualified to create or design a show. I highly doubt a normal person could design a DCI show. But the creative brain power needed to just come up with the concept itself could be effectively provided if the concepts/ideas themselves were crowd sourced.