Return the power to the performers (?)

[Channel3]

-MMs need to learn to create shows, not just march as meat puppets in someone else's concept.

-MMs need to select music themselves, struggle with the rights acquisition process.

-MMs need to write their own music and feel the pain of the collaborative process.

-MMs need to develop thematic arguments and develop show themes themselves, not blindly succumb to someone's half baked Shostakovich 10th approach.

--MMs need to experience the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat with no one to blame but themselves.

The transition to MM-originated content should be gradual. First experiencing design meetings, then adding input, then taking the reigns when they're ready.

MM generated content is the next wave of development in this youth-oriented and youth-owned art form.

[Ghost]

I have been saying this for years. it doesn't matter what the adults design if the kids can't perform it.

Animal Farm possibly?

[Tenoris4Jazz]

-MMs need to learn to create shows, not just march as meat puppets in someone else's concept.

-MMs need to select music themselves, struggle with the rights acquisition process.

-MMs need to write their own music and feel the pain of the collaborative process.

-MMs need to develop thematic arguments and develop show themes themselves, not blindly succumb to someone's half baked Shostakovich 10th approach.

--MMs need to experience the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat with no one to blame but themselves.

The transition to MM-originated content should be gradual. First experiencing design meetings, then adding input, then taking the reigns when they're ready.

MM generated content is the next wave of development in this youth-oriented and youth-owned art form.

Maybe I'm too old, but there's no way I'm putting teens and 20-somethings in charge of a $3 million operation. There's a reason why you don't see many 21 year old CEO's of Fortune 500 companies. Now I can see this happening with a smaller corps, or even incorporating the age outs for that season in the process, but I can't imagine Wayne Downey handing over the reigns of BD's hornline to kids who weren't even born until after he'd won his 7th championship.

[BRASSO]

if it isn't effectively performed, it doesn't matter what the adults did. If it isn't effectively performed, it doesn't matter what the adults did. IF IT ISNT EFFECTIVELY PERFORMED, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ADULTS DID!

I have been saying this for years. it doesn't matter what the adults design if the kids can't perform it.

Not entirely accurate at all. Even if you said it 25 or 50 times. For example, GE judges have been able to look beyond the woefully ineffective performer performance execution in the performance execution captions of Percussion or Brass or Guard ( 6th, 7th place ) and have still rewarded Corps with 1st, 2nd Total GE scores, thus allowing the adult created Show Design to bring home the bacon despite the woeful performer performance. This is verifiable. Crown did it. BD has done it ( finished 6th 7th in a performance execution caption ) but won it all anyway.. It is NOT imperative at all for the execution performance to be effectively executed.. We can only say that it helps the GE scores to have superior performer execution. No more, no less.. But is it absolutely essential that the show be effectively performed in performer execution to win Total GE as you implied here ? No. It isn't absolutely essential at all.. Just helpful, thats all. Crown and BD alike have won DCI Titles with ineffective performer performance execution in one or more captions. It was the adult created Show Designs ( GE ) that saved the day. Conversely, performers can effectively perform and execute their playing better than anyone ( 1st place in Percussion even out of 45 Corps), but if adults let them down by giving them a subpar Show Design ( GE ), no amount of highly effective, superior, performer performance execution such as 1st place ( Percussion )can save the Corps from the lemon the adults put out onto the field.

Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

We have judges VERY SUBJECTIVELY deciding this. Why should this subjective criteria be what determines the results? And I'm sorry, but while there are instances of subjectivity in evaluating performance captions, there are also many concrete factors which can lead you to objectively determine corps X did something better than corps Y. I was on an open class corps staff for 3 years and was privy to listening to GE tapes as well as listening to the GE judges at critique, and have worked (primarily with one) marching band for the past 7 years, including musically arranging our show last year. The tastes and opinions of GE judges differ quite a lot in my experience and it's not something I hold against them either way because they are doing the job to the best of their ability. It is a problem with the system.

the judges have specific criteria on their sheets. who chose that criteria?

the corps.

[Jeff Ream]

OMG, this is ridiculous. You have no idea why Crown chose the music to Rach Star. You have opinions, nothing more. Quit trying to make is sound like your theories are proven science. They're not.

Give me Kevin Smith saying their designers chose music from the judge's youth and I'd believe you. But I think about the judges that night (and I know two personally) and they don't fit your "average judge age" presumption, so the brilliant designers you reference wouldn't have been so brilliant after all had they used your method to decide what music to play.

I know the designers of that show and they did nothing of the sort.

now don't use logic and slow down his steamrolling of reality. you'll kill all offseason entertainment on here

[Jeff Ream]

Well, I wasn't even alive during the tic system so I don't know much about it...all I know is I would be in favor of a more performance based system. I agree that I doubt we will see it, but I personally would do two GE judges who both are responsible for 10 points each. Then you could maybe add a guard judge (I've heard people say this is the most subjective performance caption, I'm not a gusrd person myself) and have both visual and music worth 40 points. This way GE would be more the icing on the cake which still helps to determine a winner and is still important but on the whole does weight the scoring more to objectivity.

here's the catch:

there was no standard tic. your tic could vary from my tic. I know one circuit claims to have had a manual of what a tic was and wasn't, and after some digging, even some judges admitted it gave them great leeway.

Plus, BITD, many judges didn't have nearly the background and education in the activity todays judges do, and the sheets had little if any criteria. Your idea of a flubbed attack could be to me just a fuzzy attack. I head stories of one drum judge who wanted snare heads to be super tight, and if you tuned lower, your were automatically dirty. There's legions of stories out there, even on here, that show the tic system was no better.

Now....to truly give the performer more credit, really, you may want to explore WGI for a second. In the lower classes in guard, and for percussion, on the downstairs sheets the performer number gets weighted. so that judges 10/10 actually gets multiplied to come out 70/130 or 150/250. That way the performance is weighted greater. I'm not sure of the new percussion breakdown with the added 4th sheet, but in theory it says you're supposed to spin/play well, not just getting credit for trying the tough stuff

[Jeff Ream]

in my opinion, it was a gradual transformation from more performer based to more adult created Show Design based. If you are looking for a year, I would say the year DCI decided to forego full judging panels a few years back accelerated this transformation. I'm actually not quite sure on the exact year DCI abandoned their long held policies of having guarantees on full judging panels to their marchers. Perhaps another poster here might know what year that was for us. As for what year I'd like the system to have full judging panels with full performance execution captions for all shows ?. I'd say for 2016.. Having the change to full judging panels for all DCI competitions should help return some needed balance to the over emphasis now toward the skew toward the adult created Show Designs on the new sheets.

Are you in favor, N.E. Brigand, of a return to the guarantee to the MM's of full judging panels for all shows ? Or do you believe ( as some apparently do ) that we can effectively judge a Drum & Bugle Corps competition without a Drum performance execution judge.... a Brass performance execution judge.... or a Guard performance execution judge... or any loss of a combination, thereof ?

any shift happened long before the early season smaller panels. You seem to put so much weight on there as how they influence the end of the year, when in reality, they mean nothing

[Jeff Ream]

Yes. Crown placed 6th in a MM'er performance execution caption ( Percussion ) and despite this, because of a great adult created show design, they still won themselves a DCI Title in 2013

For the history buffs here, not only has a DCI Corps not won a DCI title finishing as low as 6th place in a GE caption, no corps in DCI history ( back to its inception in 1972 ) has ever won a DCI Title with a total GE score ( musical/ visual ) that did not medal ( top 3 ). GE ( Show Design ) has always been important. But today, its is far, far, more important to the scores than performer execution on the new sheets. For further evidence, Crown could not have won a DCI Title had they placed 1st or 2nd in Percussion in 2013 ( performance execution caption ) but say 4th in General Effect total. For yet another example, SCV has had an outstanding Percussion section the last 4 years, always in the hunt for the Sanford Award for best Percussion section in DCI. Have they medaled ? No ? Nuff said then, right, ? ... on the predominance now of the adult created Show Designs over that of the MM's performance execution on the sheets ?..... especially when DCI now has no Drum judge.. no Brass judge... no Guard judge for the majority of its competitions each summer now ?

.

IT'S NOT A MAJORITY OF THE SHOWS!

DO YOU BELIEVE IF YOU KEEP REPEATING A LIE ENOUGH IT WILL COME TRUE???

The first show this summer was what June 17th or so?

and by the beginning of July small panels were done, and full panels were in for over a month. so please, stop stating this lie as fact, because recaps on the DCi website prove you wrong.

[Jeff Ream]

I don't believe thats historically accurate at all. In the past, the GE caption itself did not have 40 points. Additionally, judges today in the performance execution captions are not only allowed, but encouraged, to look at the other GE captions in the Brass playing, the Percussion playing, the Guard tossing of equipment, dancing, etc. This was not the case at all in the recent past. For example, a Percussion judge used to only judge the Percussion playing abilities of the Percussionists. It was not his task to have the criteria bleed into the GE captions... which they do now. Thus, the GE captions are far more important on the current judging sheets than ever before. GE thus is far more important on the sheets than the ever before, imo

Could Crown have won a DCI Title for themselves a mere decade or so ago ( previous sheets ) with a 6th place in Percussion ? Not a chance, N.E. Brigand. No way. But.. they had a great Show Design in 2013 and that was key. Why did Crown fall to 5th from first from 2013 to 2014 ? Drop off in MM talent ? ( after winning DCI ? )... MM's did not work as hard in 2014 over that of 2013 ? MM's did not execute as well ? Nope. Crown had a killer brass line in 2013 too. It was their adult created Show Design that was not as good as that of 2013 ( or 2015 ). And their placement results in 2014 accounted for this 4 position placement slide, year over end. This season, ( who knows how much better their MM talent was here in Crown in 2015 over 2014.. I suspect though , not much. )) they improved 3 placement positions on Finals Night, and were ever so close close from winning their 2nd DCI Title. And it was their better designed show of 2015 over that of 2014 that principally allowed them to almost win it all this season, imo

you're right it wasn't always 40 points. color guard also wasn;t factored into the score either. Imagine that....at times 1/3 of the corps didn't even have their caption count until what, 2000?