2muchcoffeeman Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) you stated it encourages membership to leave one corps to trade up to another. while that may be true for a very small %, that's such a small % that's it really no different than any other corps member moving from corps to corps due to staff changes, financials, scheduling...etc. Do you honestly think that a large % of membership of the Colts or Troopers from last season left because of this? These corps are always on that edge and still have a fairly good return rate. I would love to believe it is as small a % as you claim. But there sure seems to be a wide consensus on these forums over the years that a big reason why the top-echelon corps stay in the top echelon is because their members are older, and arrive with a year or two of experience down the ranks. This whole discussion would benefit from some solid data, that's for sure. And, the assertion that the "finals or die" culture encourages members to "trade up" has zero connection to the misguided notion that "disappointment is bad" and ought to be driven out of the drum corps experience. The idea to stage a xx-corps finals has nothing to do with eliminating disappointment. Competition -- both its rewards and disappointments -- happens all along a spectrum, from 1st place to last. The top 12/finals cutoff introduces an arbitrary, needless cleavage in that continuum. The competition is to rank as high as possible. The reward that comes from the competitive drive to finish 12th is that it is higher than 13th, not that it gets you beyond an imaginary velvet rope. The disappointment with finishing 2nd is that it's not 1st, and is not alleviated by the fact that, well, at least you made finals. I mean, when you consider Crown, what do you think? Finalist corps? Or 2nd place? If you asked a Crown MM from 2015, would she say "we made finals"? Or would she say "We got second"? It's about the placement on the competitive spectrum, not about an arbitrary category. Edited May 25, 2016 by 2muchcoffeeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I would love to believe it is as small a % as you claim. But there sure seems to be a wide consensus on these forums over the years that a big reason why the top-echelon corps stay in the top echelon is because their members are older, and arrive with a year or two of experience down the ranks. This whole discussion would benefit from some solid data, that's for sure. Many of these older members go in older from the beginning. Not like the old days that I remember fondly when we spent many many years in the activity. Hard to afford that now with most. Yes , in many auditions I have been part of, as well as calls I get every summer, often before the season is even over ( which I do not encourage , not fair to their current corps ) I have seen those who moved on BUT it's not just lower corps to top 12 it's also lower part of top 12 to upper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Many of these older members go in older from the beginning. Like I said, some actual data would be useful. Admittedly, we're all arguing from impressions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) Like I said, some actual data would be useful. Admittedly, we're all arguing from impressions. I doubt you will ever get this data. Im pretty close to this situation but data I wouldn't or haven't had time for. Usually in a fight over it, especially when it comes to the dead beat. I can tell you it happens, in droves? not so much. Just all depends on the corps, the persons goals and wants and what the previous corps offered or didn't. For the honest MMs it's hard today to tell someone they can't move on when they pay thousands a season . Edited May 25, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I would love to believe it is as small a % as you claim. But there sure seems to be a wide consensus on these forums over the years that a big reason why the top-echelon corps stay in the top echelon is because their members are older, and arrive with a year or two of experience down the ranks. Heck, there is even more than just anecdotal evidence that a vast majority of try out campers wit the elite Corps, that get cut, don't go and march with the non elites... they just sit it out. This is why I have ENORMOUS respect for all these 19th-40th place Corps and their marchers each and every season. Without these uncompensated feeder Corps providing the elites such MM talent each and every season it is highly doubtful these elite corps would be able to dominate like this each and every summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 For the honest MMs it's hard today to tell someone they can't move on when they pay thousands a season . Of course, and I'm not advocating anything like this. My proposal regarding finals is meant only to diminish -- not eliminate -- some of the "finals anxiety" that creates an incentive for some members to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) The Elite Corps drop the " deadbeats " as you referred to them ...every season. Their parents might have spent a boatload to that elite Corps in the past, but if someone else comes along from a lower " feeder " Corp in the off season that is better than the vet, that Elite Corps will toss that vet kid and his and his parents dough to the curb in a heartbeat. It happens ALL the time too in DCI.. And most of us are conditioned to this culture, as well. We like it as it is, and so thats that. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong either ( thats a moral and ethics judgement and for others as such to decide for themselves). I'm just pointing out what is, and why these 19th-40th Corps are far more likely to stop breathing, than to ever get a new lease on life, and move up in placements in the future. Thats why I say... forgettaboutitt... and just enjoy these perennial 19th to 40th placing Corps and their shows for what they are. Gawd only knows, the Elite Corps could not really exist without them. Edited May 25, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c mor Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Brasso - so if "the vast majority of ...campers... that get cut... sit it out", would they not then be freed from transfer restrictions anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) The Elite Corps drop the " deadbeats " as you referred to them ...every season. Their parents might have spent a boatload to that elite Corps in the past, but if someone else comes along from a lower " feeder " Corp in the off season that is better than the vet, that Elite Corps will toss that vet kid and his and his parents dough to the curb in a heartbeat. It happens ALL the time too in DCI.. And most of us are conditioned to this culture, as well. We like it as it is, and so thats that. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong either ( thats a moral and ethics judgement and for others as such to decide for themselves). I'm just pointing out what is, and why these 19th-40th Corps are far more likely to stop breathing, than to ever get a new lease on life, and move up in placements in the future. Thats why I say... forgettaboutitt... and just enjoy these perennial 19th to 40th placing Corps and their shows for what they are. Gawd only knows, the Elite Corps could not really exist without them. As referring to that dead beat kid YES I am very passionate about it and gladly pin that name on them as they earned it. I would challenge those here and anyone on whether we are conditioned to this behavior . It stings and have hurt corps in a very big way. Most of the statement concerning this sort of thing was actually in response to the statement on MMs moving on when owing others. As far as MMs just moving on. I haven't liked it over the years BUT as I said when one pays thousands it's hard to tell them what they can or can't do, especially if they are in good standing. As far as kids who gt cut just sitting out. Many do this as you stated , Mainly because of lack of time in the activity left to them. Many, if not most corps WILL suggest , even make calls for them to others looking for members or where they may be a good fit. Edited May 25, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) Brasso - so if "the vast majority of ...campers... that get cut... sit it out", would they not then be freed from transfer restrictions anyway? Its a good question, and probably would depend on the provisions in any transfer policy established and agreed to, by all these DCI Corps. That said, I am under no illusions that they'll be a sensible transfer policy ever established in DCI ( that all organizatioins have ). The elite Corps have enormous political clout off the field in what rules are implemented in DCI, and they are not for something that could potentially level the playing field in the rules of engagement in competition. Plus, most Scholastic Band parents are seemingly not in favor of any serious discussions on a sensible transfer policy, so its all a non starter, really. But as such, any realistic chance that 99% of these perennial 19th-40th placing Corps will be competing with the elites any time in the future is a complete non starter as well, imo. And so thats that. Edited May 25, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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