GUARDLING Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Regardless of why it happens, the average age (and experience) of a medaling corps is higher than the corps that are not. Yes, a lot plays into a championship show, but you cannot put a show on the field with the demand of Cadets, BD, Coats, Crown and Vanguard with a corps dominated by teenagers. I mean come on, it really isn't arguable. Look at the average age of Blue Devils B and C, and Vanguard Cadets. Look at the shows they put on the field. Great shows, for sure, but they ain't medaling. I will add, for the record, that I think transfer policies or any kind of player personnel system is absurd in an activity in which kids pay to be in it, and are not obligated to show up if they get signed and traded. That is why I say the only "solution" to this issue is more great marchers competing for roster spots. With all due respect again its a very wide brush you paint with. Does maturity help, of course, is it possible maybe maybe not. You look at corps and why they take kids with only one reason in mind. I can tell you as one who screens members, it is far from the only reason of age. This is what I'm saying Do you look at DCA members as being much better or seasoned merely because of age? hmmm They are older, have had more time to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 As I've said a million times already, lower tier corps have first crack at these kids. They have them for an entire season (10 months!) . IMO that is a huge opportunity. If you can't convince them to stay with your corps, you need to be looking at your own organization not pointing fingers at others. If a member has a season that makes him/her look forward to next season, is he/she still going to leave? Ive been on both sides of that and you ( as much as I hated to admit it at one time ) are 100 % right, no policy changes that or will. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) Out of curiosity, do any corps work with organizational psychologists? Everyone saying money isn't a motivating factor to keep members reminded me that that's a common theme in business too, and the business sector has found that keeping employees happy/challenged/motivated/engaged/etc. has been the best way to keep employees from jumping ship. Maybe some of those concepts can be applied to drum corps. Yes there have been several over time within the ranks of corps. Right again , money has been proven NOT to be a motivator Right on all accounts as far as my experience has been. Ive seen the good and bad of it over the years too. Edited July 29, 2016 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) Out of curiosity, do any corps work with organizational psychologists? Everyone saying money isn't a motivating factor to keep members reminded me that that's a common theme in business too, and the business sector has found that keeping employees happy/challenged/motivated/engaged/etc. has been the best way to keep employees from jumping ship. Maybe some of those concepts can be applied to drum corps. Stop doing things they way you've always done them. Bring fresh minds to the design team. Bring in ageouts from corps who seem to be teaching well. Change your culture. Just because you have things "figured out" doesn't mean there's not a better way. Most of all -- listen to your members. They're telling you what's wrong all the time if you're really listening. And finally -- stop pointing fingers and whining about how the system is rigged and it's impossible to move up. You may think that's staying internal and the MM's are never hearing it. You're wrong. Edited July 29, 2016 by corpsband 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Stop doing things they way you've always done them. Bring fresh minds to the design team. Bring in ageouts from corps who seem to be teaching well. Change your culture. Just because you have things "figured out" doesn't mean there's not a better way. Most of all -- listen to your members. They're telling you what's wrong all the time if you're really listening. And finally -- stop pointing fingers and whining about how the system is rigged and it's impossible to move up. You may think that's staying internal and the MM's are never hearing it. You're wrong. this and holding kids hostage, PAYING kids won't make a corps better who already has their own issues and why they can't retain members or staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) If you can't convince them to stay with your corps, you need to be looking at your own organization not pointing fingers at others. If a member has a season that makes him/her look forward to next season, is he/she still going to leave? Yes, if a kid is sufficiently interested in making finals. Or making the top 6. Or top 3 -- or just moving up, period. Even if he/she is totally in love with his/her first corps. Even if that first corps provided a fabulous experience. Even if the kid knows it was a fabulous experience, yet is willing to have a less-fabulous experience with a corps that offers the certainty of Making Finals. Because Making Finals is that important. We delude ourselves if we think this does not matter to young people. The clock is ticking on their eligibility; they don't have time to stick around and build something. For many, especially those who see DCI as a necessary prerequisite to a music-education career, it is critical to getting the jobs they want after they age out. With each year, drum corps is less a summer activity and more a way to burnish a resume. Not every kids feels this way. Perhaps, not even a majority of them do. But enough of them do to make the difference. The obsession to Make Finals does two things: 1. It creates incredible performances that are thrilling among the top corps. 2. It contributes to the near paralysis in the rankings, broken only by "lightning-in-a-bottle" events such as Academy's apparently perfect mix of design and member capability. The acknowledged uber-importance of show design on a corps' ranking only intensifies the effect. Making Finals is increasingly pre-ordained by the quality of the drawings the designer makes in December. It is increasingly out of the kids' hands. Give this year's Academy the Piano Man show, and where would they be? Give this year's Madison a stronger show design, and where would they be? Any rational young person driven primarily by competitive ambitions, then, would gravitate toward the proven designers. And the arteries harden just a little more. </hobby_horse> Edited July 29, 2016 by 2muchcoffeeman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Of course, but that's not going to ever happen! Blue Devils are going to sign experienced kids who have already figured out how to play in March at a medaling level. Of course they can teach the activity better than anyone, but that is what their lower corps is for. Everybody is bringing up good thoughts here, and I don't disagree with what you are saying, but no one is telling me the average age of these corps. I'll bet my tickets to tonight's Nashville show that the average age is almost lockstep with average finish. My understanding is that BD had a fairly "young" corps (for them) last year. I would not be surprised to find that others (Crown?, Cadets?) may have had higher average age. Would love for DCI to publish that info each year. Personally, I believe the primary drivers for "winning" (in order from my perspective) are: Quality of design (we constantly talk about BD's dominance here) - which also goes to stability/longevity of design team. Without that, as weighty as GE and visual are on scores, One would be hard-pressed to "win" despite my other three drivers. Quality of instruction/educational process - again look at stability and longevity. Cadets visual this year may be a case study of this. Not as a criticism, just that the change can take a while for the team to gel and build consistent, efficient educational practices. Talent level of members, especially in movement. My observation as a brass instructor over the last 4 years is that you can build better brass players more easily than better "movers". Your mileage may vary, as this is likely highly dependent on the instructional team and system for both. Retention also is a subset of this driver. If you make the experience positive and minimize bad logistical impact, you can hopefully improve both talent and age via retention. Age (only so far as availability for spring training). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) My understanding is that BD had a fairly "young" corps (for them) last year. I would not be surprised to find that others (Crown?, Cadets?) may have had higher average age. Would love for DCI to publish that info each year. Personally, I believe the primary drivers for "winning" (in order from my perspective) are: Quality of design (we constantly talk about BD's dominance here) - which also goes to stability/longevity of design team. Without that, as weighty as GE and visual are on scores, One would be hard-pressed to "win" despite my other three drivers. Quality of instruction/educational process - again look at stability and longevity. Cadets visual this year may be a case study of this. Not as a criticism, just that the change can take a while for the team to gel and build consistent, efficient educational practices. Talent level of members, especially in movement. My observation as a brass instructor over the last 4 years is that you can build better brass players more easily than better "movers". Your mileage may vary, as this is likely highly dependent on the instructional team and system for both. Retention also is a subset of this driver. If you make the experience positive and minimize bad logistical impact, you can hopefully improve both talent and age via retention. Age (only so far as availability for spring training). I agree with your ranking. And I think too many folks think #2 is the same everywhere; it most certainly is not. I think quality of the admin needs to be in that list. All the time they are NOT on the rehearsal field has a big impact on members' perceptions about the corps. Edited July 29, 2016 by corpsband 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillH Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 I agree with your ranking. And I think too many folks think #2 is the same everywhere; it most certainly is not. I think quality of the admin needs to be in that list. All the time they are NOT on the rehearsal field has a big impact on members' perceptions about the corps. Yes. That was what I was poorly trying to say under talent level/retention comment. Best designer and staff in the world will not retain well if the members don't travel safely and eat and sleep sufficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv4corps Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) For Cappybara Edited July 29, 2016 by luv4corps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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