Why does Jersey Surf do so bad?

[Stu]

1 hour ago, cixelsyd said:

I would be fine with 89 world class corps.  For what possible reason should I not want that?

Because when everybody is considered special (ie World Class) nobody is special. Over my lifetime I have seen corps in DCI, not Surf, but other corps score in the teens and lower; as in they were extremely and embarrassingly awful in their performances.  However, if there was no limit to the number of corps deemed 'World Class' some of those corps would have fit the criteria of being financially sound and able to do a national tour.  And to call those corps ‘World Class’ would completely and utterly insult not only the classification name but also the names of the corps within that classification which are endeavoring to be the best of the best in the world (ie World Class).

[garfield]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Because when everybody is considered special (ie World Class) nobody is special. Over my lifetime I have seen corps in DCI, not Surf, but other corps score in the teens and lower; as in they were extremely and embarrassingly awful in their performances.  However, if there was no limit to the number of corps deemed 'World Class' some of those corps would have fit the criteria of being financially sound and able to do a national tour.  And to call those corps ‘World Class’ would completely and utterly insult not only the classification name but also the names of the corps within that classification which are endeavoring to be the best of the best in the world (ie World Class).

 

I'd like the answers, too: Where's the line and why is the existing line not the correct one?

This thread is starting to sound an awful lot like "Those who can, do.  Those who can't come to DCP and suggest they know best (or even better)".

"Let's just draw the line here and force everyone below onto the OC tour".  Yea, that makes sense.

Now if, on the other hand, you're suggesting tightening up the requirements for future applicants then, OK, what's the parameter that defines admission if it's not the ability to make the full tour and do battle with the big shots?

Are the WC corps going to stand up and state publicly that they don't want the little dogs nipping at their heels?  Are they too far above that now as "the draw" (hear the remnants of Hopp's vision?)?

 

 

[BRASSO]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Because when everybody is considered special (ie World Class) nobody is special.

 

 Actually, using classification breakdowns within World Class ( which is what you are seeking) then there IS someone " special". Since your criteria you are using is " scores and placements" then the only real " special " Corps in the World Class Division of yours are the Blue Devils. They are " special " in this scores and placements criteria as nobody else has collected as many Medals & Titles. Nobody is even remotely close to their overall " scores and placements " in DCI over the years. They stand alone over the long haul in DCI under your criteria. There is thus, the " Special " Drum Corps of the Blue Devils, and THEN, " nobody " else. I don't look at it this way, but utilizing your criteria to break down the World Class Division into sub classifications of the haves and the have nots... when it comes to Titles and placements criteria, and comparing ALL the World Class Division Corps, the only real " Have " Corps are the Blue Devils, and all the rest of the Corps ( under this Titles. Medals and Placements criteria you are utilizing) are all the " Have Nots ", and comparatively speaking, are all " not that successful " either... and frankly not much more successful than the Jersey Surf is, in diminishing that " specialness " of the Blue Devils in your World Class Division criteria breakdown in defining " success ", and who is " special " and who is not.

Edited March 24, 2017 by BRASSO

[cixelsyd]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Because when everybody is considered special (ie World Class) nobody is special. 

 

Who said "everybody"?  If we had 400 corps (which we did awhile ago), and 89 of them were special enough to merit "world class" status in DCI per their criteria, is that a problem?

Quote

Over my lifetime I have seen corps in DCI, not Surf, but other corps score in the teens and lower; as in they were extremely and embarrassingly awful in their performances.  However, if there was no limit to the number of corps deemed 'World Class' some of those corps would have fit the criteria of being financially sound and able to do a national tour.  And to call those corps ‘World Class’ would completely and utterly insult not only the classification name but also the names of the corps within that classification which are endeavoring to be the best of the best in the world (ie World Class).

But again, it seems you want to be judge and jury as to who really is "endeavoring to be the best" and who is not.  It does not work that way.

World class eligibility is decided by DCI per established criteria.  If you wish to suggest a change to those criteria, go right ahead... but it needs to be a discrete criterion that can be assessed by a DCI evaluator.  

World class membership is granted to an eligible corps if decided by a vote of the DCI member corps.  Member corps can vote a corps in, or they can vote a corps out.  If you wish to suggest how corps vote on that issue, go right ahead... but you will need more compelling logic than "Stu thinks they are not trying hard enough".

[BRASSO]

28 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

.

World class eligibility is decided by DCI per established criteria.  

 Yup. And DCI has voted to move  World Class Division Corps to Open Class Division levels before too ( and vice versa ) . But what we are reading is that Stu here apparently wants a vote on this for DCI. They should run these decisions by him, first. He's got the DCI criteria for Corps on Classification qualifications in his home drawer, and he refers to it often to monitor who should be in and who should be out. That said, if DCI voted to move Pioneer down to Open Class ( for perhaps their own good ) I wouldn't take up a protest sign on a curb outside of Indy's HQ.

Edited March 24, 2017 by BRASSO

[corpsband]

2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

I believe they spend more time marketing themselves at DCI events.  And the Internet is another platform for marketing.  They have their own website, and have also been active on Facebook.  (This is not a comprehensive list... ) 

Everyone recruits from their souvie stands -- it's low budget stuff.   Same for the internet-based media.  

Off-season it's almost entirely scholastic.  TOB, USBands, Cavalcade -- that's where you see their recruiting booth.  

[corpsband]

45 minutes ago, garfield said:

I'd like the answers, too: Where's the line and why is the existing line not the correct one?

This thread is starting to sound an awful lot like "Those who can, do.  Those who can't come to DCP and suggest they know best (or even better)".

"Let's just draw the line here and force everyone below onto the OC tour".  Yea, that makes sense.

Now if, on the other hand, you're suggesting tightening up the requirements for future applicants then, OK, what's the parameter that defines admission if it's not the ability to make the full tour and do battle with the big shots?

Are the WC corps going to stand up and state publicly that they don't want the little dogs nipping at their heels?  Are they too far above that now as "the draw" (hear the remnants of Hopp's vision?)?

 

 

I don't think Stu's view is unreasonable.   He's talking about exactly the same system that's in place for WGI units: classification based on the same criteria used to determine the score.  Unfortunately DCI is not in any sort of position to implement that sort of system.  WGI has a much larger, healthier base with which to work.  Heck on the guard side, the A class has grown so large they need to move to spread prelims events to Miami of Ohio and NKU all the way in Cincinnati .  Finals for A class aren't even in the UD Arena anymore.  Percussion has seen similar growth.  DCI is quite happy to add corps the WC division just to bolster the schedule and try to avoid those 4-5 corps shows.  It's all about sustainable touring for now.  If the activity grows to the point where a competitive division of WC makes sense,  that would be good news indeed.

[PhoenixDCI]

On 3/22/2017 at 10:40 AM, lossvegas said:

Jersey Surf's past show was really quite impressive compared to years past.

Referring to OP (and others), the point was that Surf should NOT be scoring as low as they are.  So maybe points are not necessarily indicative of who should and who should not be in the WC. 

By the way, the biggest high school recruitment strategy - US Bands, owned by the Cadets. You can bet that they market themselves at every competition mercilessly, even bringing out MMs in full uniform to give out trophies (one of which is a Cadets shako - our HS band has one).

[Stu]

In response to Garfield, Brasso, and Corpsband -

DCI sets the criteria; that is true.  But I also wish DCI was a separate entity apart from the corps directors, and allow the corps directors to be advisers but not voting board members..  That said, all I am seeking is for the classification of World Class to be based on competitive merit on top of financial stability; nothing more.  Would I set the number of corps so small that it only benefited BD and/or the other self-serving 6?  Nope.  However, I would appreciate a system that would be something like this: The last week of tour all corps within DCI, that is WC, OC, and even SoundSport can compete in Prelims if they so desire; then a set-number of the corps would qualify for semi-finals based on scores; and after the semi-finals those that competitively qualify for the Saturday Finals would become the next year's WC designated corps. Merit Based classification of WC.  Imagine someone taking you to a baseball game where on both teams the pitchers can only throw 65mph fastballs; the hitters cannot hit any home runs; the base runners are slow; the catcher always bounces the ball when throwing to second base; and the person who took you to the game states proudly that those teams are World Class Major Teams.  When you inquire as to what makes them World Class the response is, “Oh, any team which is financially capable to make it to all of the games is what makes them the caliber of team to be called World Class Major.”  Would you not chuckle and shake your head at that response?

Edited March 25, 2017 by Stu

[Liahona]

15 hours ago, Stu said:

Because when everybody is considered special (ie World Class) nobody is special. Over my lifetime I have seen corps in DCI, not Surf, but other corps score in the teens and lower; as in they were extremely and embarrassingly awful in their performances.  However, if there was no limit to the number of corps deemed 'World Class' some of those corps would have fit the criteria of being financially sound and able to do a national tour.  And to call those corps ‘World Class’ would completely and utterly insult not only the classification name but also the names of the corps within that classification which are endeavoring to be the best of the best in the world (ie World Class).

 

I find it ironic that "Open Class" was the main division classification from 1972 to 1991...with 1972- 1974 being the only division classification...then it was decided to call it Division 1 from 1992 to 2007...and now its called "World Class" since 2008...

How the heck does lower placing corps insult the classification name? 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Liahona