"All they do is stand around and play!!!" A Comparison

[N.E. Brigand]

47 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

The gremlins won't let me reply to you any longer than this.  I keep getting a 500 error. ????

Sometimes DCP is weird that way.

[JimF-LowBari]

3 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Yeah, I was thinking of, by comparison, how Mozart's horn concertos, written for natural (i.e., valveless) horns, are usually played by modern valved horns -- and they use the valves to hit the notes.

lol I have a bunch of 1950s show recordings from back in the single valve days. Very simple arrangements but then you wonder how the bleep they did it with so few playable notes.  Some of the concert (stand still) numbers are so melodic they are jaw droppers.

Edited July 11, 2019 by JimF-LowBari

[JimF-LowBari]

3 hours ago, jjeffeory said:

As you go higher on either instrument key, you tend to not use the 3rd valve anyway unless it's an alternative fingering.

When the alumni type corps I was in got all 3 valve we seemed to use the 3rd quite a bit. But horn instructor/arranger came from the 2v days and just think he enjoyed opening it up.

Late 70s played 2nd bari and can think of two places we really needed that third valve for the right note. 40 years later I still cringe when I hear those parts of the music even with the whole corps playing. I know it’s there and that’s all I seem to hear

[cfirwin3]

3 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

In fact, isn't it true that the fewer valves you have, the harder it can be to play the same passage of music? Also, since most American students going back decades have learned brass on Bb instruments, wasn't there an added degree of difficulty in having to switch to G bugles? Additionally, weren't even three-valved G bugles generally harder to control than Bb instruments?

The difficulty mostly applies to extreme cases.  For a natural horn or trumpet, there are no valves.  Instead, the length of the instrument is increased such that the harmonic series is dropped, thereby bringing the diatonic notes into play without any valves.  This is difficult to control, but it is an extreme scenario (not relevant to the G vs. Bb debate).  The only notes out of play on the 2 valve G instruments (assuming that you stay in or above the staff) are low Eb (2,3) and Second space Ab (2,3).  High ledger line 2 Ab is covered with an alternate fingering (1) and it has some rough tuning without throwing the slide.  Otherwise, the 2 valve G horns can play straight forward valve combinations.

A great benefit of the G bugles (any number of valves) was for those screaming soprano solos back in the day.  Bringing the harmonic series down allowed for increased flexibility and slippery...ness...  Lots of smooth jazzy 'lip trills' and shakes and creative valve combinations on the extreme register notes.

[N.E. Brigand]

27 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

The difficulty mostly applies to extreme cases.  For a natural horn or trumpet, there are no valves.  Instead, the length of the instrument is increased such that the harmonic series is dropped, thereby bringing the diatonic notes into play without any valves.  This is difficult to control, but it is an extreme scenario (not relevant to the G vs. Bb debate).  The only notes out of play on the 2 valve G instruments (assuming that you stay in or above the staff) are low Eb (2,3) and Second space Ab (2,3).  High ledger line 2 Ab is covered with an alternate fingering (1) and it has some rough tuning without throwing the slide.  Otherwise, the 2 valve G horns can play straight forward valve combinations.

A great benefit of the G bugles (any number of valves) was for those screaming soprano solos back in the day.  Bringing the harmonic series down allowed for increased flexibility and slippery...ness...  Lots of smooth jazzy 'lip trills' and shakes and creative valve combinations on the extreme register notes.

Around the time corps were switching from G to Bb instruments -- which at or just before you were marching, I think -- weren't people making the argument that G instruments were harder to play? People on both sides of the debate? The pro-G argument being that it required more skill and the anti-G argument being that not having to learn a new instrument would make it easier to recruit? (Also that the produced more volume, but that's another argument.)

[JimF-LowBari]

13 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Around the time corps were switching from G to Bb instruments -- which at or just before you were marching, I think -- weren't people making the argument that G instruments were harder to play? People on both sides of the debate? The pro-G argument being that it required more skill and the anti-G argument being that not having to learn a new instrument would make it easier to recruit? (Also that the produced more volume, but that's another argument.)

Remember the back and forth on RAMD and harder to play bit applied to ear training as students had to get used to sound of different key. “Oh if they have camp they are switching back and forth etc”. Not being a music major made no difference to me. Hey it’s different so what? 

Never did get G is louder bit. Have done piston/rotor, 2v and 3 v all in G. Horn construction was the volume different imo.

[N.E. Brigand]

Just now, JimF-LowBari said:

Remember the back and forth on RAMD and harder to play bit applied to ear training as students had to get used to sound of different key. “Oh if they have camp they are switching back and forth etc”. Not being a music major made no difference to me. Hey it’s different so what? 

Never did get G is louder bit. Have done piston/rotor, 2v and 3 v all in G. Horn construction was the volume different imo.

Two or three years ago Raiders tried a new Bb horn that seemed to make them sound much larger than their size.

[JimF-LowBari]

2 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Two or three years ago Raiders tried a new Bb horn that seemed to make them sound much larger than their size.

Interesting... forgot to mention Lot of corps back in my day believed if loud is good then louder is better. Now the emphasis is on blend and being more musical than hit the emotions with sound.

[cfirwin3]

46 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Around the time corps were switching from G to Bb instruments -- which at or just before you were marching, I think -- weren't people making the argument that G instruments were harder to play? People on both sides of the debate? The pro-G argument being that it required more skill and the anti-G argument being that not having to learn a new instrument would make it easier to recruit? (Also that the produced more volume, but that's another argument.)

I was among the last to play in G.  They were not harder, but there is certainly a subliminal comfortability to playing in your usual transposition.  That is helpful at camps where you can bring your own horn and not get stuck with a clunker 2 valve dinosaur in an unfamiliar transposition (potentially fewer split attacks when you are trying to impress the staff).

Personally I think the sound debate has much more to do with timbral differences on SOME brass lines than it has to do with volume.  I think that most Bb hornlines today deliver on what we expect from a drumcorps.

[Jeff Ream]

interesting topic, thanks for your work