GUARDLING Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 24 minutes ago, ContraFart said: Yes this again lol. Either numbers mean something or they don't. they do but never mean perfect 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Joe Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 1 hour ago, jjeffeory said: Been complaining about that for decades, but I'm reading the Cavaliers book, and they complain about the lack of consistency in the 50s -70s. I think consistency is over rated. BOA usnt as consistent from night to night, why should DCI be so? Because they mostly judge the design. BOA is now starting to do the same though. Well when your judges bleed over into BOA, that's going to happen. They get that mentality during the summer and carry it over into the fall. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/21/2023 at 12:57 PM, DudleytheWest said: I'm sorry if I upset you or have offended you. But, I thank you for the thoughtful and knowledgable reply. I think part of a problem is the lack of understanding and the lack of skills that most of us (non-judges) have. I always laugh when people say the right corps one or so and so shouldn't have won, like they have the knowledge and skills to judge all captions simultaneously and from a video at that. It sounds like you are a guard judge, which may qualify you to judge other captions, but could you judge brass or percussion? I would guess the answer would be "no" but somehow everyone on here is qualified to judge all captions. What I really struggle with is how anyone can get past their bias or politics. It's so ingrained in us. I had a friend who used to judge but quit because they got flak from other judges and a corps for scoring that corps lower than another corps in their caption. They didn't feel like they could judge based on their knowledge, expertise and assessment of that performance, but were rather pressured to judge one way or another. I have heard this from others too. I have heard countless stories over the years, and have witnessed things myself, that do lead me to believe politics plays a big part in judging. When I look back over all the years, there is only one champion I strongly disagree with winning. Therefore, at the end of the day, I think you all get it right, but I also think it's an impossible job. I just wonder how big a role politics plays in deciding who is 1st, 2nd or 3rd, when many years any of them could win. the thing is like isn't on the sheet. in fact its frowned upon to use the word like. so a judge that knows the sheet they are judging knows how to overcome that bias. for groups i have judged, shows i wouldnt care for as a fan scored well on that sheet because they did what the criteria called for, both for content and achievement. conversly shows i would love as a fan didn't score well because they didn't match up with the sheets descriptos for what a high score needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/21/2023 at 4:14 PM, Grandpa Joe said: Correct me all you want, my point still stands that no corps is going to be within hundredths of a point of each other. You can't make it make sense, nor can any judge. There is going to be plenty wrong with every performance to keep from having to use hundredths of a point. It's done just to make things appear to be closer than they really are, and was supposed to be done to keep from having ties, but apparently that was proved to not work last year. why not? say team X is #### good, but team A is just a tiny smidge better? the hundredth helps. go look at prosperie's recap from 2019.....the hundredth says volumes in how it was used. it got the rank and rate how it needed to be, and gave credit to each group for being so #### good. remember that judge is only judging their sheet. they don't know what everyone else is doing numbers wise. they judt judge their sheet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/21/2023 at 4:38 PM, DudleytheWest said: It does not make sense. Judges should be capable to spacing out the corps accurately without having to rely on having hundredths to work with. A 9.8 doesn't mean anything other than you were amongst the top, or the top, corps in that caption. It means you were better than the corps who got a 9.7 and worse than a corps that got a 9.9. It's silly to have three corps given a 9.85, and 9.8 and a 9.75 rather than just a 9.8, 9.7 and 9.6. This system was created to prevent ties because fans can't handle ties. No other reason. why aritifically hold numbers down just maintain the .1 mantra the activity has had for forever. again as mentioned before look at Prosperie in 19. the hundredth gave the credit, helped him maintain box integrity and get the result how he felt it should be without artiically spacing numbers out. https://www.dci.org/scores/recap/2019-dci-world-championship-finals 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) On 6/22/2023 at 8:37 AM, DudleytheWest said: Thank you. There's that, too. Judges eyes can't be every where. Now, we do know that at a corps like BD that every darn member is extremely talented so you know they are all performing at the highest level, but yes, it is impossible. I just really don't think this activity should be judged any more. Look at the variety of shows we had in 2021. I loved Madison, Regiment and Cadets doing throwbacks and I love that Bluecoats kept it modern. It was a nice mix of shows. Not saying I want throwbacks all the time, but we'd have more variety because corps would be able to play to the fans instead of the judges, and therefore, wouldn't have to consider how anything they are doing is going to reflect on the judges. We also still saw high quality programs despite the shorter prep time. honestly....removing scores will chase fans of all ages off. you can't say crowd size for 21 shows otherwise....after not having 2020 fans were happy just to have anything Edited June 25, 2023 by Jeff Ream 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/22/2023 at 5:31 PM, ContraFart said: I dont understand that argument. When people judge concert band festivals, they never say they can't judge a 55 member band simultaneously. Percussion judges only need to judge 25ish people, Brass judges only about 90 same for guard judges. Those who judge all 165 usually have a birds eye view. I just see that argument as a cop out for when judging does not go correctly. But dont listen to me, after WGI this year I have lost all faith in pageantry judging. but is a drum judge say judging the entire section at once? no, they're checking out sections at times, not just everything. same for brass or field visual. even upstairs, youre not looking at the big picture every single second. youre looking at different places at times because of how things develop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneWhoKnows Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: why aritifically hold numbers down just maintain the .1 mantra the activity has had for forever. again as mentioned before look at Prosperie in 19. the hundredth gave the credit, helped him maintain box integrity and get the result how he felt it should be without artiically spacing numbers out. https://www.dci.org/scores/recap/2019-dci-world-championship-finals This is just one of the reasons why Prosperie is one of the judges that I will never question when it comes to scoring and placement. 13 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: honestly....removing scores will chase fans of all ages off. you can't say crowd size for 21 shows otherwise....after not having 2020 fans were happy just to have anything Removing competition would be the demise of the activity as we know we it. We can all say it’s for the kids, it’s about the performance, it’s about the experience all we want, and while that’s all true, there is a natural drive for competition. You wouldn’t watch a sports game if it ended in a tie no matter what. But that competitive spirit is also what drives these to be world class performances. It is what pushes the kids to be better. Eventually, without it, the performances would suffer. And you would have less participants. Kids aren’t going to pay to travel the country and work their butts off to not try to win or beat that corps ahead of them or just get better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said: This is just one of the reasons why Prosperie is one of the judges that I will never question when it comes to scoring and placement. Removing competition would be the demise of the activity as we know we it. We can all say it’s for the kids, it’s about the performance, it’s about the experience all we want, and while that’s all true, there is a natural drive for competition. You wouldn’t watch a sports game if it ended in a tie no matter what. But that competitive spirit is also what drives these to be world class performances. It is what pushes the kids to be better. Eventually, without it, the performances would suffer. And you would have less participants. Kids aren’t going to pay to travel the country and work their butts off to not try to win or beat that corps ahead of them or just get better. agreed. i know DCI did some stuff almost a decade ago about judging....maybe they should do it again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: but is a drum judge say judging the entire section at once? no, they're checking out sections at times, not just everything. same for brass or field visual. even upstairs, youre not looking at the big picture every single second. youre looking at different places at times because of how things develop. A visual judge is sure as hell looking at the entire visual package at once. Even if they are not, a major event like a fall will be noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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