Jeff Ream Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 12 hours ago, jwillis35 said: Good point but this is one of the tough things about DCI Judging. On one hand you could say that in a competitive activity or sport that the number (score) should be relative to the other competitors. In football your score is relative to what the other team's defense allows you to have. You could be an offensive juggernaut but then you run into the Georgia defense and they shut you down. You're still a good team that can score but against Georgia not so much. In baseball a good pitcher can control the game and shut down a normally high-powered offense. In drum corps corps X may come out and be scoring well, then they meet the Blue Devils and their score goes down. Some don't like that and will say "yes, BD should win, but Corps X should still be in 72 point range" or whatever their most recent scores had been. Problem is BD's caption and sub-caption scores are pushing their competitor lower due to spreads. This is of course very evident when more corps are in competition. So yes, the total number is more relative to the competition because the spreads are really what determines who wins and by how much -- at least in each sub-caption and caption. And that ultimately determine total score. Not everyone likes this method. The unfortunate result is that at a large show of 10 to 12 corps (or more) there is so much stacking to do with the spreads that scores can either be inflated or pushed down. If the first corps to perform does really well but are still the 12th place corps then you often see things skyrocket which is what we usually get during Finals week. Like when the highest score prior to Finals was a 95 and then all of a sudden the top corps is sporting a 97.5 in Quarters or Semis. I know that some people would prefer some sort of rubric that doesn't really factor in the other corps and only allows the judge to provide an accurate number based on how the corps meets the standards set forth in the rubric. In Ohio they do this in OMEA band competition, but usually there are no scores. Just ratings of I, II, III or at some shows they are announced as Superior, Excellent, and Good. I don't really have any answers here, nor a better solution. I just know that as long as DCI remains a competitive activity then the numbers in each caption have to deal with spreads. In other words "how much better or worse was corps x vs corps y?" perfect example...Phantom percussion 2010. 6th place overall corps, Alan threw down the 99's to leave himself room in case someone else came out better. But listening to that recording on youtube hundreds of time, if he had had the option to back and adjust, i bet at least one 10 happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 10 hours ago, ContraFart said: Ah, you hit into my main objection which is the forcing of ordinals. I believe its possible that the competition is so tight that the gap in quality between 1st and 4th is lets say .5, but the fact that ties are not allowed and ordinals are forced, 4th HAS to be AT LEAST .15 below 1st on an individual sheet. This is where you talk about scores about being pushed up or down when there are larger shows. When you speak about adjudication only for rating, I agree with everyone 100% (we have a similar system here in FL) I guess what I want people to realize that even though judges do they best they can, the system itself has fundamental flaws that make it extremely easy to call any result into question. ties are allowed...look at last night. but come on....just so numbers stay close are you advocating 3 groups tie a sub box? one of them had to be better than the other two just a smidge...hence the hundredth option. and there has never been, nor will there be a perfect system. drum corps has tinkered with it since day 2. the current set up...the skeleton of which first came into play in 2000 is the best one to date. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: ordinals didnt affect anything. the judge made a call. that 4th, when added up and then averages could have changed the show otherwise. but the judge felt on that sheet in that box Bloo was 4th best of the night. and remember...the judges job is to judge that sheet that day. They aren't worried about the overall number. if they are, they aren't doing it right.and the judge that day did just that when you look at that sheet from semis...judges the show of the day I dont think you are understanding my argument. Are you saying that it is not possible that 4th can be .05 away from 1st in terms of quality on a single sheet? I know by the current rules of judging that is not possible because you have to rank then score, but I strongly believe that the talent and execution at the top can be that tight in some areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: ties are allowed...look at last night. but come on....just so numbers stay close are you advocating 3 groups tie a sub box? one of them had to be better than the other two just a smidge...hence the hundredth option. and there has never been, nor will there be a perfect system. drum corps has tinkered with it since day 2. the current set up...the skeleton of which first came into play in 2000 is the best one to date. Just because no system is perfect, does not mean we get to ignore the issues with the system we have. It needs to be constantly questioned by those inside and outside the judging community. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ContraFart said: Just because no system is perfect, does not mean we get to ignore the issues with the system we have. It needs to be constantly questioned by those inside and outside the judging community. Wasn't going to get back in this conversation but : You're right and it is. With that said, when corps feel anything doesn't fit their mission, judging or anything else corps will make the change. Exactly why DCI was formed to begin with. Edited June 30, 2023 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 10 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: perfect example...Phantom percussion 2010. 6th place overall corps, Alan threw down the 99's to leave himself room in case someone else came out better. But listening to that recording on youtube hundreds of time, if he had had the option to back and adjust, i bet at least one 10 happens Would putting down those 10's have changed the placement of Phantom that year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 10 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: perfect example...Phantom percussion 2010. 6th place overall corps, Alan threw down the 99's to leave himself room in case someone else came out better. But listening to that recording on youtube hundreds of time, if he had had the option to back and adjust, i bet at least one 10 happens Yes. That was one heck of a drum line. Best on the field for sure, but being an overall 6th place corps means your performance order doesn't do you any favors and the judges have to leave some room. And frankly if someone can come out and beat a 99 then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilme861 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 hour ago, ContraFart said: Would putting down those 10's have changed the placement of Phantom that year? They finished 2 pts behind the Cadets overall…so no. If he had wanted to put a 10, we would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DudleytheWest Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 12 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: ties are allowed.. Write an wrong. A tie for any place other than 1st on finals night is allowed. If two corps tied for first finals night there is that silly tiebreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 4 hours ago, ContraFart said: I dont think you are understanding my argument. Are you saying that it is not possible that 4th can be .05 away from 1st in terms of quality on a single sheet? I know by the current rules of judging that is not possible because you have to rank then score, but I strongly believe that the talent and execution at the top can be that tight in some areas. So where do you 2nd and 3rd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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