A history of DCI judging and scoring, and the movement away from music emphasis

[cixelsyd]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

and who creates the sheets?

Not a simple question.

If I recall correctly, modifications to the sheets normally take the form of a rule change proposal.  Anyone can write a rule change proposal, but the rulebook says only corps directors/staff or judges can submit a rule change proposal.  Proposals are developed by a committee of judges, designers and instructors, subsequently published, then discussed and voted upon in a series of caucuses at the DCI annual meeting.  Certain majorities of instructors, and then corps directors, must be in favor to approve a rule change.

So to answer your question, many people create the sheets.  The two primary categories of people are corps-affiliated staff and DCI-affiliated judges.  The bosses of both groups (corps directors and the DCI Judge Administrator and Artistic Director) have some potential input in the process, should they choose to use it.

Why do you ask?

[Slingerland]

56 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

and who creates the sheets?

The inmates who run the asylum. 

 

[Jeff Ream]

21 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Not a simple question.

If I recall correctly, modifications to the sheets normally take the form of a rule change proposal.  Anyone can write a rule change proposal, but the rulebook says only corps directors/staff or judges can submit a rule change proposal.  Proposals are developed by a committee of judges, designers and instructors, subsequently published, then discussed and voted upon in a series of caucuses at the DCI annual meeting.  Certain majorities of instructors, and then corps directors, must be in favor to approve a rule change.

So to answer your question, many people create the sheets.  The two primary categories of people are corps-affiliated staff and DCI-affiliated judges.  The bosses of both groups (corps directors and the DCI Judge Administrator and Artistic Director) have some potential input in the process, should they choose to use it.

Why do you ask?

because in the end, as you state, the corps vote on it. so if they didn't like the system in place, they'd try to change it.

 

too many on here continue to espouse the view the judges dictate what is judged, and thats simply not true. Sure they may recommend changes to the sheets, but in the end the corps control if it happens or not. the judging community doesn't act in a blind vacuum with no oversight. Even when Cesario began his push a decade ago, it still had to be voted on and approved by the corps. and by and large, whats being done today is a result of his push which IMO, has made the on field product more engaging to the fan base as well as the score sheets.

[Jeff Ream]

22 minutes ago, Slingerland said:

The inmates who run the asylum. 

 

exactly. so as i said above, the corps vote on it. the judges don't just go and decide how things are to be done by themselves

[Slingerland]

3 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

exactly. so as i said above, the corps vote on it. the judges don't just go and decide how things are to be done by themselves

The judges are the least influential individuals in the judging process. Call a Famous Designer's work less than brilliant, and watch your ### get kicked from the Finals week judging schedule (it happens regularly).

Why are some corps literally paying $60-140k to grownups to write or teach drum corps shows? Because they know that the individuals who can command those fees bring with them the influence over the judges to make sure the corps they work for is looked on favorably.

Designers run the show, bolstered by some influential (aka "domineering") voices in the managers room at Januals. Any attempt to design a scoring system that would put more power into the hands of the performers and their performance that night will be voted down in a heartbeat.  

Edited March 18 by Slingerland

[cixelsyd]

3 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

because in the end, as you state, the corps vote on it. so if they didn't like the system in place, they'd try to change it.

too many on here continue to espouse the view the judges dictate what is judged, and thats simply not true. 

Maybe you are misreading their intent.

Did you think that is what I meant when I posted "the issue there is what judges reward"?  If so, I hope my subsequent post clarified my understanding.  I am well aware that judges, designers and instructors all steer the creative direction of the activity.  Some of them switch between those three roles at different times or in different pageantry circuits, so they are not diametrically opposed factions to begin with.  In fact, change usually comes when all three arrive at consensus.

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Slingerland said:

The judges are the least influential individuals in the judging process. Call a Famous Designer's work less than brilliant, and watch your ### get kicked from the Finals week judging schedule (it happens regularly).

Why are some corps literally paying $60-140k to grownups to write or teach drum corps shows? Because they know that the individuals who can command those fees bring with them the influence over the judges to make sure the corps they work for is looked on favorably.

Designers run the show, bolstered by some influential (aka "domineering") voices in the managers room at Januals. Any attempt to design a scoring system that would put more power into the hands of the performers and their performance that night will be voted down in a heartbeat.  

by the time regional assignments are made, they pretty much know who is working finals week. the only case i know of someone being off finals when expected to be wa sa few years ago for a family situation. Pretty much if you work Atlanta/Crown weekend, San Antonio and Allentown, you're working Indy. and judges schedules are set in the winter because they have to give their availability that early.

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Maybe you are misreading their intent.

Did you think that is what I meant when I posted "the issue there is what judges reward"?  If so, I hope my subsequent post clarified my understanding.  I am well aware that judges, designers and instructors all steer the creative direction of the activity.  Some of them switch between those three roles at different times or in different pageantry circuits, so they are not diametrically opposed factions to begin with.  In fact, change usually comes when all three arrive at consensus.

no, I'm not misreading it. this site in 22 years is littered with it. and other places too. hell i'm on a podcast where i've had to dispel that notion on multiple occasions. 

 

and yes many in the activity bounce between multiple roles. the activity is beyond incestuous. but any judge trying to go rogue and set policy on their own doesn't last long. and i do think to a point the judges have a little input....after all, they're the ones having to interpret whats given to them.

[BigW]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

 

 

and yes many in the activity bounce between multiple roles. the activity is beyond incestuous. but any judge trying to go rogue and set policy on their own doesn't last long. and i do think to a point the judges have a little input....after all, they're the ones having to interpret what's given to them.

Indeed. A case study could be the whole DCA "communication" semi-subcaption. I asked people involved that I respect that should have been able to give me a clear answer to me about the caption that weren't really able to. They obviously needed to interpret what the sam scratch it meant since they were having to put numbers in the box.

 

From my observation, and this is my personal impression- it just ended up being a parroting of the actual what/how main caption numbers, or an average of the two. Last season- and the last season it will ever be used-(for which I believe Jeff is thankful, myself as well) judges finally seemed to have a better understanding of what the intent was and the numbers finally began to have some actual independence from the main section of the caption.

 

What do I think, and mind you, this is what I think for what it's worth:

1: it was a well-meaning but not a great attempt to try and come up with some kind of an excuse to give Effect more weight and try and give some kind of nod to the audience.

2: I also think it was an attempt by some competitors in particular that figured that their pandering to the audience was their specialty, that they had a monopoly on it...and that the "Blue Team" (emphasis the DCA Blue team) didn't have a clue and that this would easily reel them in. This was a pretty huge mistake on their parts. The Blue Team folks don't live in a bubble, they're not fools, and they can read the sheets and the rubrics. They made adjustments and pretty much won Communication while it existed. It reminds me of when the Electronics rules in DCI were developed and voted in, The Bluecoats pretty much said, "We didn't vote for this, but we're not going to sit back and not do it. We're going in whole hog, we'll figure it out and do it better than everyone else." Certain groups who hoped to get that "unfair advantage" (1$ to Mark Donohue) got knocked on their bohintis/Badonkadonkas (1$ to Tiny Tina)

[IllianaLancerContra]

16 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

and who creates the sheets?

Apparently a couple of big-name visual gurus.