Dot vs Form

[84BDsop]

One problem with a pure dot system is how you handle the movement from the dot on page 6 to the dot on page 7. Unless you understand the form, you can end up with two VERY sharp and clear sets (pages 6 and 7) and a WHOLE lot of 'fuzz' in between. "Gee, I hit my dot...what is the problem?"

In rehearsal with the band I work with, we do use dots as destination points page by page, but we make sure the kids know 1) what the form is and 2) how we progress from dot-to-dot, form-wise.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Five words I HATE hearing...."But.....I'm on my dot!"

[PR_ducky]

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this, but form beats dots for the following reason.

The drill sheets used by the drill writers are an approximation of the real world.

The 8 to 5 step does not mathematically fit (without remainder) into a football field.

It is fine for marching from one yard line to another but it is fudged when going from front to back and sideline to hash and so on.

If you go strictly by dots on the paper you will get small gaps at some point because some people will mark off from hash, others from sideline.

In the end, its a comprimise, one will not work without the other. If you go strictly by dots you will have imperfect forms, if you go strictly by form you might end up 5 yards off (and I have seen it happen).

There is a reason all corps use a mix of the two, even the Cavies as much as they may deny it, The Cavaliers, like every other corps cover down when in a form, its human nature to look and get in line.

But all things must have a starting point which is why you learn with dots, but clean using forms.

At least that has been my experience over the years

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Five words I HATE hearing...."But.....I'm on my dot!"

If the person really is on their dot, and it still looks bad. Fix the people who are creating the problem. Don't make the guy who is actually doing his job wrong just so he can blend in. That may make it look alright now, but it does nothing to adress the real problem of the drill and it will just get worse. Ideally, everyone should be able to say "But I'm on my dot". And when I hear that as a vis tech, I don't get mad. I refuse to yell at someone for doing their job. I give them drill, they march that drill, I can't fault them for that. Just casue it may look like they are wrong doesnt mean they are. You don't treat symptoms, you treat the problem. Find out what is really going on and fix that guy, not the guy who is left out in the dust who is only trying to follow the drill he was given.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

There is a reason all corps use a mix of the two, even the Cavies as much as they may deny it, The Cavaliers, like every other corps cover down when in a form, its human nature to look and get in line.

I agree, but all those things involve adjusting a form within a few inches. Part of their foot is already on the dot, just a very minor correction needs to take place. Of course the Cavies probably adjust this way. But other corps value form to the point of making people 4 or 5 steps off their charted dot.

The reason why cavies drill is so good and everyone else has yet to reach that level:

When the cavies set up a line and guiding the form would put people more than a few inches off, they actually set it off their dots to fix the CAUSE of the problem. When other corps set up a line, they just tell everyone to guide the form no matter what. When the guy on the end is off by 3 steps the vis techs just say "it looks fine, the judges don't have the drill".

[84BDsop]

If the person really is on their dot, and it still looks bad.  Fix the people who are creating the problem.  Don't make the guy who is actually doing his job wrong just so he can blend in.  That may make it look alright now, but it does nothing to adress the real problem of the drill and it will just get worse.  Ideally, everyone should be able to say "But I'm on my dot".  And when I hear that as a vis tech, I don't get mad.  I refuse to yell at someone for doing their job.  I give them drill, they march that drill, I can't fault them for that.  Just casue it may look like they are wrong doesnt mean they are.  You don't treat symptoms, you treat the problem.  Find out what is really going on and fix that guy, not the guy who is left out in the dust who is only trying to follow the drill he was given.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps this is more a consequence of marching with older members who never had a dot system to begin with, like me.

Dream has a pretty high average age (especially if you take out our battery from 05). I think only 2 or 3 people ever used a dot system...we're used to using a purely form method...and Charlie Groh always reminds us that there won't be a dot or grid on the field...and not to be married to the dot. He'd rather the form be correct in shape than on the dot...if we're setting up a formation of some sort and the ENTIRE corps is off because the set guy misses his dot, but the corps went with the form, there's really no error.

By the same token, if you've got one dot-diver who insists on not dressing the form and going for his dot....HE'S the one wrong.

[madscout96]

I agree, but all those things involve adjusting a form within a few inches.  Part of their foot is already on the dot, just a very minor correction needs to take place.  Of course the Cavies probably adjust this way.  But other corps value form to the point of making people 4 or 5 steps off their charted dot. 

The reason why cavies drill is so good and everyone else has yet to reach that level:

When the cavies set up a line and guiding the form would put people more than a few inches off, they actually set it off their dots to fix the CAUSE of the problem.  When other corps set up a line, they just tell everyone to guide the form no matter what.  When the guy on the end is off by 3 steps the vis techs just say "it looks fine, the judges don't have the drill".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not convinced that all instructors under a "form guiding" system operate this way. The judges may not have the drill, but the staff certainly does and it's their job to fix a form the way it's supposed to look when they stop there during a visual rehearsal. They have things to fix, some get priority, some things have to wait. And when they fix a form, I'm sure they get endpoints in the right place, get everyone on their correct yardline relationship, even out intervals, and make the form look the way it's supposed to look, then have everyone at their correct facings and say "this is what it looks like when it's correct. Check out the angles, the intervals, and the distances. Check out the spatial relationships to each other."

My point (after that long paragraph). I think there's a difference between guiding to the form "on the fly" and guiding to the form in rehearsal and setting the form CORRECTLY. If you set the endpoints of diagonals on their dots, set the furthest in, out, front, and back points of curves on their dots, and get everyone in between to round out the curves, even out the intervals, and get in the angle, then you should have the form looking the way it should. You have them get in their facings and have them notice where their dress responsibility is and where their cover responsibility is (there can only be 2 directions to guide to, and never more than that). THEN you have them run it back, and run through the move again, and they should be looking for the form they just made perfect. This is the way I did it with HS kids the past few years...

Oh, and another problem with the dot system: You'll have to babysit alot of kids when they find their dot, unless you have a very mature group. If they don't have an extremely stellar sense of step size, they'll be saying "I'm on my dot, 2.5 steps off", and it'll be more like 1 step or something like that.

I've been talking way too much already about this and I consider myself a music person, not a drill person! But I guess for me I think that starting out with dots, when you're JUST learning the drill, is probably best. After that they need to understand what their role is in the bigger picture so they can fine tune it.

[MikeD]

Perhaps this is more a consequence of marching with older members who never had a dot system to begin with, like me.

Dream has a pretty high average age (especially if you take out our battery from 05).  I think only 2 or 3 people ever used a dot system...we're used to using a purely form method...and Charlie Groh always reminds us that there won't be a dot or grid on the field...and not to be married to the dot.  He'd rather the form be correct in shape than on the dot...if we're setting up a formation of some sort and the ENTIRE corps is off because the set guy misses his dot, but the corps went with the form, there's really no error.

By the same token, if you've got one dot-diver who insists on not dressing the form and going for his dot....HE'S the one wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Our general philosophy is to rehearse to the dot but perform to the form.

Mike

[Phantom&Phitch]

The reason why cavies drill is so good and everyone else has yet to reach that level:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

dude... they havent taken visual since 2002... i think a lot of ppl are caught up...

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I'm sure they get endpoints in the right place, get everyone on their correct yardline relationship, even out intervals, and make the form look the way it's supposed to look, then have everyone at their correct facings and say "this is what it looks like when it's correct. Check out the angles, the intervals, and the distances. Check out the spatial relationships to each other."

But the problem with that is still causality. If one person in the middles messes it up, it isnt just a mistake or wasted rep for them, it a waste for everyone behind them. Each person should work on getting their show, correct and consistent. That way if one or 2 people are still having trouble, the rest of the line doesnt have to keep practicing it the wrong way until they figure it out.

And no probably not all instructors do that. But I have marched in 3 different Div 1 corps and have experianced it every summer.

[tylerdurden]

One problem with a pure dot system is how you handle the movement from the dot on page 6 to the dot on page 7. Unless you understand the form, you can end up with two VERY sharp and clear sets (pages 6 and 7) and a WHOLE lot of 'fuzz' in between. "Gee, I hit my dot...what is the problem?"

In rehearsal with the band I work with, we do use dots as destination points page by page, but we make sure the kids know 1) what the form is and 2) how we progress from dot-to-dot, form-wise.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With the idiot comment before, I said it to say that you shouldn't rely on the person next to you to march your drill and just clean your own house.

I have never really had a problem with poor visual phrasing. When I teach drill (and rehearse it everyday over the season), we pound in step size, dots, and PATH. I've seen a lot of guiding groups have the same problems of fuzzy or bad drill development. If you teach straight line paths to 99.9% of all drill moves, you won't have this problem (if your drill is written well).