Dot vs Form

[Hrothgar15]

Five words I HATE hearing...."But.....I'm on my dot!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those are actually the best words. If every simply hits every set the whole show, the forms are perfect. Most drill writing programs use a 10th of an 8-to-5 step (2.25 inches) as a unit; thus, the furthest the computer could be off is 1.125 inches, meaning the average error is about a centimeter. Marchers should march the same exact drill every single time they perform; they shouldn't have to wonder "Where will the the forms take me for tonight's performance?" They should know exactly where they're going to go at all times. Let's say a vertical line is moving across the field. The leader of that line never hits his spot and always takes an inconsistent step size. This forces the fifteen or so people behind him to both not know where the heck they're going to go next or how big the step size will be, as well as to march it differently every single time, eliminating any form of muscle memory whatsoever. If everyone just worried about hitting their spot during that line that goes across the field, the drill will fall into place and the line will be perfectly straight AUTOMATICALLY. "Making sure you're nose-to-spine" should be used as a last resort and isn't all that necessary. Also, if that line figures out on what count they cross the yardline, this feat of hitting your dot is practically effortless.

[84BDsop]

Those are actually the best words. If every simply hits every set the whole show, the forms are perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Operative word..."if" Remember my perspective...no dots back in my Jr days...same for MOST of the guys I march with in Sr...so if we go with the form like we were trained, the guy dot-diving is WRONG in terms of the execjution fo the form.

We heard the "but I'm on my dot" a lot from a few people this year....caused no end of aggrivation.

[PhillyDCIMontreal]

For us... Pete Emmons passed out poker chips to mark our spots. Different colors for different forms.

Kept a few.... they are in my 'Drum Corps Box'. (nothing more than a cigar shaped box with that funny little guy 'Ziggy' on it) :)

[84BDsop]

For us... Pete Emmons passed out poker chips to mark our spots. Different colors for different forms.

Kept a few.... they are in my 'Drum Corps Box'.  (nothing more than a cigar shaped box with that funny little guy 'Ziggy' on it)  :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poker chips.....*snicker*

Hi, Trish!!

[ZSDAvenger]

Now you are changing the comparison in an effort to get the outcome you are looking for, which is to get me to admit that form/interval errors in a dot system are more "evident" than form/interval errors in a form system.  I will not admit that because it is not true.  A form/interval error is the same in either case.  A spade is a spade, in any light.

Now you're just making things up. Never once did I mention which error is most noticeable. You sure nailed when you said an error is an error. But I never argued against that point. I said, and will continue to say, that a correctly formed shape in 'form' marching will look better than a 'dot' form with an out of place marcher, regardless of the placement on the field of the 'form' image. FORGET everything abuot the location of the 'form' image. thats irrelavent.

First it was an arc with interval/form errors formed exactly where the drill chart says it should be (with the exception of the errors), compared to an arc without form/interval errors but that is formed X number of steps from where the drill chart says it should be.  We either compare the form/interval errors of the arcs, or we compare the field placement errors of the arcs.  But we cannot cross-compare the errors and make a judgment as to which is "worse".  The type of system used in either comparison is not relevent.

you're still arguing abuot soething that wasnt brought up. Arguing the wrong argument. And when did we bring in more than one arc? The issue is still a 'dot' arc vs. a 'form' arc. Dot marchers will not respond to the surroundings like form marchers will. It doesnt matter where the 'form' arc ended up, but that people are cooperating and see errors occur and will respond accordingly.

Ultimately, Im not sure why you're picking a fight that doesnt exist.....

Now, if you are asking to compare the RECOVERY of either form/interval errors or field placement errors during the move within each individual system, then that is something that can be discussed.  Am I right when I say that you believe that in a form system, form/interval errors are less "noticable" because the marchers can see and correct the error "on the fly" (through an understanding of the spacial arrangement of their body to those around them and how that should develop through time)?  But that a dot marcher does not have the ability to correct form/interval errors "on the fly" because they do not have the tool of spacial arrangements available to them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, you are right on the money! you nailed it!

Though that first sentence you wrote is completly out of the blue.....

G-Cym, Omello1, both of you at some point in this thread continue to say that in a 'form only' group, that an image will be ruined because one person is out of the form and everyone else robotically follows.

Are you serious!?!?

Understand that the corps that use form marching ALSO pound into the members heads that if one person is blowing the form that you DONT follow that one person!

Thats just silly to assume that everyone would robotically follow no matter what happens. It doesnt work that way. If 'form' marching was a computer program, and we were all robots, then yes, the one bug (out of form marcher) in the program would cause all the other robots behind to follow suit. Thankfully Joe wont 'jump off the bridge' just because the guy in front of him did.

Thats rather naive. I love how people think that "youve nailed it!!!" when they agree with you. hah! b**bs

I have a hard time with this one considering who the team is that has a long long history for excellent marching

[Steve709]

judges see forms.... not dots..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Judges see forms when everybody is on their dots, clean, impressive forms.

[WestCoast7]

Rather than debating which method gets cleaner, I think we should focus on what is really important. That is the difference in "clean" and in "achievement"

I'm pretty sure that none of the judges sheets have the words "CLEAN" on them. But they all talk about achievement.

Here is an example, using the arc scenario aforementioned:

Dot-arc: 1 guy REALLY out....rest of arc hit dots...appears NOT CLEAN

Form-arc: No one out....however, arc has that "form" look about it. And you all know what I mean....its smooth, but not shaped quite right. Flatter here, rounder there, several points of inflection. Appears CLEAN.

Which has achieved more? The 63 right people, or the 64 people that kind of formed a shape that kinda looks like its right.

Another example: Cadets performed a move in Liquid where 4 BIG arcs parallel to each other sort of move and then reverse arc (change inflection), convex to concave. Now at first glance, it looks pretty $#&* clean. But when you look closer, you see that the arcs aren't the same shape, there are several flat, straight portions on some, and the ARCS CHANGE INFLECTION AT DIFFERENT TIMES (notice by watching when the center of each flattens and inverts) I doubt Sacktig wrote for that to happen. So, its clean, but how much has it achieved? If all we talk about is clean, we'll be in 1975 again.

Same with Phantom. They form many big, loping curves across the field that look pretty clean. But when you ANALYZE and look it terms of achivement, there is not much integration, much dimension, much exposure, or much opportunity to look dirty. Same with Cadets. How many people when watching them can really tell what a shape is supposed to be? And no, I don't mean a shower head...I mean pure intent of shape. I think Blue Devils expose their corps more than many groups. Same with Cavaliers. You see more dirt in them sometimes because they offer more opportunity to see dirt...which is ATTEMPTING....which is WHAT.....which is the first and primary aspect of ACHIEVEMENT. THEN you look at how its done....which is where the cleanliness aspect comes into play. The activity will move forward when these conversations change from CLEAN to defining what achievement is, what difficulty is (not speed), what exposure is, what integration is, what variety is, etc.....

Cadets were pretty $#& clean though. Congrats to them on a great year.

[PR_ducky]

I agree, but all those things involve adjusting a form within a few inches.  Part of their foot is already on the dot, just a very minor correction needs to take place.  Of course the Cavies probably adjust this way.  But other corps value form to the point of making people 4 or 5 steps off their charted dot. 

The reason why cavies drill is so good and everyone else has yet to reach that level:

When the cavies set up a line and guiding the form would put people more than a few inches off, they actually set it off their dots to fix the CAUSE of the problem.  When other corps set up a line, they just tell everyone to guide the form no matter what.  When the guy on the end is off by 3 steps the vis techs just say "it looks fine, the judges don't have the drill".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No corps I have ever been a part of had instructors that did that.

[fnchdrms87]

cavies really haven't won taken visual since 2002?

[PR_ducky]

Those are actually the best words. If every simply hits every set the whole show, the forms are perfect. Most drill writing programs use a 10th of an 8-to-5 step (2.25 inches) as a unit; thus, the furthest the computer could be off is 1.125 inches, meaning the average error is about a centimeter. Marchers should march the same exact drill every single time they perform; they shouldn't have to wonder "Where will the the forms take me for tonight's performance?" They should know exactly where they're going to go at all times. Let's say a vertical line is moving across the field. The leader of that line never hits his spot and always takes an inconsistent step size. This forces the fifteen or so people behind him to both not know where the heck they're going to go next or how big the step size will be, as well as to march it differently every single time, eliminating any form of muscle memory whatsoever. If everyone just worried about hitting their spot during that line that goes across the field, the drill will fall into place and the line will be perfectly straight AUTOMATICALLY. "Making sure you're nose-to-spine" should be used as a last resort and isn't all that necessary. Also, if that line figures out on what count they cross the yardline, this feat of hitting your dot is practically effortless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true, a 22.5 inch step does not fit front to back on a football field. If some members mark off from back side, others from back hash, others from front hash, and others from front side it will not be a "perfect form" even if everyone marks off correctly.

Granted, it will be close, but not perfect.