Eliminate Division 2

[drumcat]

If all Division 2 corps were converted to Regional D1, or full D1, we'd have around 34 D1's.

As it stands, many people have said that Division 2 is an inferior experience -- not in the drum corps part, but to paraphrase, "that DCI only cares about D1 corps".

If D2 is such a red-headed stepchild, why shouldn't it be dissolved?

Thoughts? Flames? I'm curious about this.

[MikeN]

You're not giving, though, solid arguments as to why it *should* be eliminated. Why not include D3, by your rationale?

Mike

[Galen]

As it stands, many people have said that Division 2 is an inferior experience -- not in the drum corps part, but to paraphrase, "that DCI only cares about D1 corps".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I marched Cap Reg when that corps was Div 2, so I'll dispute this part.

My "thought" is that you haven't provided any real arguments, other than the numbers, to back up your assertion.

[Carl306]

If all Div 2 corps were converted to full touring Div 1's or just regional Div 1's, odds are that a lot of them would not place very competitively against the bigger corps. Not to mention, the costs of doing a full tour, or even a regional tour, is probably more than the cost of just going out on weekends for the first half of the season and then htitting the road for the last 2 to 3 weeks of tour. If a Div 2 wants to move up, let them do so on their own, don't simply force them out there...

My opinion on it, at least.

[losAngeles]

concur.

Edited September 22, 2005 by losAngeles

[vaguardguy]

I think the simplest reason is that few people want to join drum corps that are relatively weak in reference to their competition. Most people would rather join a first or second-place DivII corps than a 20th-place DivI corps (barring issues like desire to do a full tour). It's for this reason I'm genuinely concerned about Kiwanis' future ability to field a corps after this summer's weak performance, and I hope they have some clever recruiting strategies.

Most sports and competitive art-forms have different classifications based on pools of roughly similar talent/qualification. Yes, sometimes one finds overlap (usually the DCI DivII winner can make DivI semifinals in much the same way we used to joke in Ohio about how our OSU football program could probably beat the Browns and the Bengals), but these pools are formed using imperfect criteria. In some cases, they're defined by concrete terms (DCI DivIII used to be corps under 60-members, NCAA DivI-AAA is defined by being a non-scholarship sport at schools with major DivI scholarship teams), while others are formed under less concrete terms (DivII is primarily different from DivI only in competitive terms, much like WGI's A/Open/World delineation for guards or MLB's minor league circuits that plays identical to professional baseball other than having the immense talent pool).

Different classifications of competition exist to preserve the stability of the less-competitive units and allow them a venue to perfect their craft and maybe, one-day, step up to play in a higher classification. In DCI's case, it allows usually newer corps (though there are DivII/III corps who have been around for decades like Dutch Boy or Blue Stars) a place to establish themselves, being able to feed of their successes in this setting so as to improve to a level where they can successfully compete in DivI. Fielding a corps is hard. It takes years to acquire all the best equipment, to garner all the best talent, to accrue the best staff. Why would you want to be hampered by near-last-place finishes when you can compete in a division geared towards corps that don't yet have all these pieces in place.

Also, different corps have different objectives. In DivIII, there are a few corps that exist to provide a means for inner-city kids to get off the streets. There are also essentially "kiddie-corps" that have geared towards much younger membership. All this is in addition to very competitive DivIII corps who have comparable designs and talent to DivII corps (just with less members, and correspondingly lower scores). Some DivII/III corps wish to be mostly "weekend-only" corps (usually these corps do perform a two-week DCI tour, a shorter mini-tour, and a short "death-camp"), allowing their membership to hold jobs in addition to marching the junior corps activity. I worked 40hrs a week to pay for college my three summers of drum corps, usually only having to take four or five work days off during the summer for corps before quitting my job late July to compete in the DivII/III tour. This kind of practice schedule would not be competitive even in the regional DivI classification. Some corps do not have the infrastructure to acquire the staff and equipment to be competitive in DivI (for example, most DivII/III corps are still on very old G bugles). Finally, some DivII/III corps directors simply don't want to step up to that level of competition, but would like their corps to be able to compete in an appropriate classification that rewards them for what they have.

For the health of the activity, I'm inclined to believe DCI should institute all their divisions strictly on competitive nature (much like WGI). Eliminating DivII would have almost certainly prohibited most of the newer DivI corps from getting to that level, and would probably be a death-blow to a large portion of the activity. Rather than eliminating DivII, DCI should give them much more exposure. The quality of the units are still far-and-above 99.9% of high school marching bands, and the top DivII units are noticeably better than the bottom DivI corps that receive marginally more exposure. DCI, rather than being concerned with protecting the perceived quality of their "brand", should be more focused on the growth of the activity.

[audiodb]

I think the simplest reason is that few people want to join drum corps that are relatively weak in reference to their competition.  Most people would rather join a first or second-place DivII corps than a 20th-place DivI corps (barring issues like desire to do a full tour). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see it quite that way. Last year's division II champ and division I last-place corps make for an interesting comparison:

Spartans: 47 brass, 34 percussion, 24 guard, 106 total

Pioneer: 49 brass, 31 percussion, 18 guard, 100 total

Seems pretty close to me.

[Phirefenix]

Due to the lack of supporting arguments by the author of the thread I'm not inclined to reply. Though I will.

I toured in Div. 3 for 4 years. Followed by a year in a very successful Div. 2 corps this summer. I haven't regretted any of it. Many friends of mine went Div. 1 long before I have. I chose to stay with Teal, and on to Spartans because the experience appealed to me. I believe a large number of participants in both divisions enjoy their summers immensely. That's why we do it. That's why you see people in 2/3 that have been involved with their corps for 5,6,7 years, and age-out with a 2/3 corps.

Arguably there are people who march Div. 1 for that long, though in my personal experience I haven't met quite as many. Either way I don't think dissolving division 2 is a smart move. Even as a regional Div. 1 tour might be more expensive. This could lead to corps folding for financial reasons. Defeating the purpose of forcing those corps up to obtain more div. 1 corps anyway.

[drumcat]

I'll get there with the argument -- I wanted to feel out where it's going...

By contrast, is a corps compelled to move up to D1 with competitive success?

Also, what's the difference between RD1 and D2 other than sheets and competitive grouping?

Edited September 22, 2005 by drumcat

[arno0940]

I don't see it quite that way.  Last year's division II champ and division I last-place corps make for an interesting comparison:

Spartans: 47 brass, 34 percussion, 24 guard, 106 total

Pioneer: 49 brass, 31 percussion, 18 guard, 100 total

Seems pretty close to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FYI

To the best of my knowledge, Pioneer didn't place last in Division 1 and According to DCI's website, East Coast Jazz comes up as the Div 2 champion. (changing photos on DCI.org mainpage)