When Did Jrs Surpass Srs?

[dannyboy]

the question is which has better quality

Ah!!! But what IS "Quality?"

(Don't worry, this ends "on topic.")

Robert Piersig, in his classic book ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE, basically presents a Metaphysics of Quality as a dichotomy of Classical Quality and Romantic Quality. He uses the metaphor of a motorcycle -- precision parts and engineering are the Classical Quality; the whole/performance/experience is Romantic Quality. Both combine for True Quality.

So, maybe in Drumcorpsdom...

Classical "Quality" (Technical Mastery?) of drum corps (DCI bias)

vs.

Romantic "Quality" (Art/Entertainment?) of drum corps (DCA bias)

Differences in adjudication sheets demonstrate that there is bias for technical mastery in DCI, and bias for entertainment value in DCA. They are measured differently. The two circuits reward a different combination of Classical and Romantic Quality, differently. They are different animals not just because of age groups, but by how they are rewarded.

But of course Quality, by it's own nature, is subjective... which opens THAT old can of adjudication worms.

Edited for spelling.

Edited September 27, 2005 by dannyboy

[esmellosop]

This attitude is the reason Sr. corps is such a joke to everyone I marched with.... the superior air about it. The dinosaurs complain about DCI alienating its fans, but Sr. corps alienates potential members with this kind of attitude.

The marching members and staffs in junior corps alienates the potential members about marching all age corps enough for us already.

And I marched junior corps.....I remember the unabashed dislike for anything that was not junior corps..... so that to me is an air of superiority.

When we play with crass tone quality, or march like crap, the staff says "You're not a senior corps!" If you are allowed to sling insults at us, then I can do the same. Only, in this case, it's actually true.

When was the last time you were at an all age show??? I know that our brass staff would kill us if we play with crass tone quality......not to mention how much time we spend cleaning our marching technique.

But that comment alone backs up my first comment about the junior corps staffs

At the rate it's going, the only people interested are going to be the people desperately trying to cling on to their glory days. Why would I, or any of us, want to be involved in something that considers what we know and love to be inferior?

I know that myself and everyone of my family that I march with are doing it not to relive our "glory days" but for a love of the activity. The love of performing and the thrill of competition.

You mentioned alienating potential members.......well until the junior corps thoughts about the all age corps changes then we will continue to have this "friendly discussion."

[Donny Drum Corps]

Think about it...

Go back as far as the 60's when you could hear the Royal Airs, Cavies, Boston, Blessed Sac et al...much "better" than the best east coast seniors. However those Cabs, Sky, Hurcs, Bucs, et al had power that the juniors didnt. The quality of sound was much different. The juniors had a much more musical tone quality even back then. The seniors had volume and power.

To me it seems that corps like Bush, Brigs, Empire, and in certain Cabs years, has brought the senior activity closer to the sound of junior corps during the last decade or actually starting in the late eighties. Another Pioneer in this regard was the Sunrisers in the 80's. Actually the early 80's Bucs corps was always accused of "being like a junior corps." That was because they spent time on quality issues instead of overblowing.

My vote was before the 60's...but it may just as well have been that it never happened as easily.

Donny

[ironlips]

Dannyboy has found the center of the thought, like a Zen master.

"...Motorcycle Maintenance" should be required reading for anyone who presumes to perform, or teach performance. It is on the reading list for my Recording Arts students so they may appreciate the relationship between art and technology.

A great performance is not simply the absence of mistakes. Every note and step is a mistake, since nothing is perfect. The presence of "romantic" quality is also required, and to the degree that it exists in the performance, the moment is art. Who decides? Why, the audience, of course. (Not the "adjudicator".)

I have a slight variance of opinion from my friend Donny (not Danny): In my view, by any standard, the Hawthorne and Skyliner corps of the '60s were far better than any of the juniors, Boston, Royal Airs and all others included. The '65 Royal Airs, however, signalled the beginning of the new junior standard which would ultimately move those corps to higher technical excellence than their all age brothers and sisters. The reasons have already been clearly delineated by others here.

Still, in the category of soloists, juniors will take a back seat to DCA and Alumni players like Donny, Ritchee, Joe Pero, Ace, Frank Ponzo...etc.

So, may we have a little balance here, Yin and Yang, so to speak?

[JimF-LowBari]

This attitude is the reason Sr. corps is such a joke to everyone I marched with.... the superior air about it. The dinosaurs complain about DCI alienating its fans, but Sr. corps alienates potential members with this kind of attitude.

When we play with crass tone quality, or march like crap, the staff says "You're not a senior corps!" If you are allowed to sling insults at us, then I can do the same. Only, in this case, it's actually true.

At the rate it's going, the only people interested are going to be the people desperately trying to cling on to their glory days. Why would I, or any of us, want to be involved in something that considers what we know and love to be inferior?

Would be real nice to explain what you mean by "This attitude". What post are you referring to???

As for the last paragraph - You're welcome to sit with me at a DCA show in 2006. You'd be surprised at the people who come to enjoy the show.

PS - "At the rate it's going"?????? Had a record number of corps at 2005 DCA. Wanna check your facts before insulting????

Edit - I've got a better idea. Why don't you layout your knowledge of the Senior side so I can better understand where you're coming from.

Edited September 26, 2005 by JimF-xWSMBari

[Donny Drum Corps]

There were at least 6 horn lines at DCA that were far from "crass" tone quality and the rest were striving for good quality albeit maybe not quite achieving it.

The days of allowing a brass line to play like crap are long gone my friend. The hornlines may not quite get to a DCI level but some are NOT far off. Bucs, Bush, Brigs, Empire, Renegades, and MBI all had lines as good as the lower level of the DCI finalists through 17th place. ON WEEKENDS only...that is the biggest difference as has already been said.

Donny

[Bob Kidd]

I think we should be a little more introspective with this girl's accusations. A little thought while dropping the defensive attitude may reveal quite a bit:

Why does she have this attitude?

Why is it more difficult, season after season, to recruit Div I age-outs?

If you have some intellectual honesty, you'll find thread after thread and post after post that DOES strongly suggest that the "seniors" do have a chip on their collective shoulders about DCI and the current state of affairs with the "juniors". Go back over the past threads and see if she's telling the truth.

You may not like the wording of the message, but its content may have validity.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Bob Kidd

[elphaba01]

you cant compare them as like entities as Tom said. Due to the difference in rehearsal time, it's apples and oranges. I have seen Sr corps that could hang w/the best of DCI and I've seen Jr. corps that even going all day every day couldn't make DCA finals.

It's like comparing college basketball to pro basketball. two totally different beasts

and quite conversely, we're tired of being stereotyped as old drunks. take a look at the average in a DCA corps...it's getting lower every year.

i'd hate to see a 17 year old kid be told he's hanging onto his glory days because he chose to march DCA because he CANT afford to march DCI

"Seniors Surpassed"

It may not be a case of the "Juniors getting better", but rather the situation where the seniors started to copy the juniors, rather than it being the other way around.

"In my day", all we ever looked forwrad to was "Going Senior". We wanted to "Be Like Them" in every way. That, sadly, no longer is the case.

Elphaba

WWW

[mellonick]

I think we should be a little more introspective with this girl's accusations. A little thought while dropping the defensive attitude may reveal quite a bit:

Why does she have this attitude?

Why is it more difficult, season after season, to recruit Div I age-outs?

If you have some intellectual honesty, you'll find thread after thread and post after post that DOES strongly suggest that the "seniors" do have a chip on their collective shoulders about DCI and the current state of affairs with the "juniors". Go back over the past threads and see if she's telling the truth.

You may not like the wording of the message, but its content may have validity.

Due to the fact that my interest and exposure to drum corps came after high school, I never marched juniors, but I greatly appreciate how hard they work, and the product they put on the field. They bring the activity to new levels (albeit in the case of amps and mic'd vocals a little too much). There are chips on both shoulders. Even watching a DCI broadcast, for the age-outs it is portrayed that drum corps is over (a well-hashed over fact in these forums) There is some elitism from some people who marched/teach DCI, but there is elitism among all musicians. Some seniors are pretty bitter towards DCI and how it has 'ruined' drum corps as we know it. Jazz guys, dont some hard-core classical people drive you up a wall? Vice-Versa? As long as there is understanding and respect for what everybody does in music, thats all that matters.

[MikeD]

I am one of the two folks in the 66-67 category...though maybe sooner would have been more accurate. I was just too young to really know the difference before then.

I also wonder WHY it matters.

Mike