The Other Mike Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 While I understand the reason to switch away from G to multi key was founded for business reasons ( Instrument companies couldn't use anything but drums that a corps used in advertisemnts), we did get inhanced tone quality. what I still wonder about is the whole copyright concept. ( as I understand it ) At one time corps did not need to obtain permission to use music because bugles were not considered legit instruments but once the 3rd valve was added things changed. Can anyone shed some light on this ? Also, I love the intonation of the multi key instruments even if it takes 80 people to match the power and volume of a 48 man line of the 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 ( as I understand it ) At one time corps did not need to obtain permission to use music because bugles were not considered legit instruments but once the 3rd valve was added things changed. Can anyone shed some light on this ? Just asked this on another thread and forget the answer (will hafta look). Think it also helped that the world was not as "sue happy" in those days so arrangers and corps could be a bit loose with the copyright laws. Now you have to get all the paperwork together before you even think of doing anything. and you can still get sued outta existance and be in the right. Eh... I can't tell the difference in key. Still think corps play softer today to be more "musical". Not being a music major would rather get excited (and at my age.... fill in your own joke.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 No, the "not real instruments" thing was a drum corps urban legend. There just was a lot less legal action going on then, plus there was not a big accessible database of what corps were playing for composers to look at and find out what pieces of theirs were being used without permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Other Mike Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 No, the "not real instruments" thing was a drum corps urban legend. There just was a lot less legal action going on then, plus there was not a big accessible database of what corps were playing for composers to look at and find out what pieces of theirs were being used without permission. So, it's all Al Gores fault for creating the internet ? :shutup: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Everything is Al Gore's fault. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Modern G horns typically are built similarly to their Bb counterparts, except most notably the Soprano. If you put a piston/rotor contrabass next to a concert tuba, you will immediately notice the differences in bore shape and size. My C tuba and my piston/rotor contra are the same height (when stood on the bell) and have a similar diameter bell. The contra has significantly more cylindrical tubing, which allows for greater projection. This construction style is evident even through the two valve era across all voices. So yes, it would be incorrect to call a soprano bugle a trumpet or a contrabass a tuba. Wikipedia has a fantastic name for G horns used in drum corps: Competition Bugles. This shows that not only are they NOT the valveless military bugles of the early 20th century, they are also NOT the multi key horns used by the majority of the activity today. I call Bb "sopranos" trumpets, and Bb "contrabasses" tubas. I've been corrected before by someone saying his horn was a contra, and I asked if it was Bb or G. He said Bb, so I said, "It's a tuba. Not a bugle." To me, a group playing on multi-key brass is a marching brass band. A brass band has cornets in Eb, trumpets or cornets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb, horns in F or Eb, baritones, euphoniums in Bb, and tubas in Eb and/or Bb. Todays DCI corps have trumpets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb (Crossmen this season), horns in F, baris and euphs in Bb, and tubas in Bb. Aside from missing the Eb cornet, instrumentation is nearly the same. I think there are plenty of great sounding hornlines that use Bb. But there is a certain presence that is missing. The overtone series of G bugles, and their previous styles of construction, allowed for very deep dark chords in the low brass with very penetrating high brass. Almost organ-like. Yes, you can get the same organ-like quality out of a Bb line, but the overtones just aren't there. To me, the most noticeable voice is the baritone. A G baritone has a much warmer sound in an ensemble than Bb. But once you crank up the volume, they get a trombone like quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I think this might be the most ultimate thread bump ever seen on DCP. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Modern G horns typically are built similarly to their Bb counterparts, except most notably the Soprano. If you put a piston/rotor contrabass next to a concert tuba, you will immediately notice the differences in bore shape and size. My C tuba and my piston/rotor contra are the same height (when stood on the bell) and have a similar diameter bell. The contra has significantly more cylindrical tubing, which allows for greater projection. This construction style is evident even through the two valve era across all voices. So yes, it would be incorrect to call a soprano bugle a trumpet or a contrabass a tuba. Wikipedia has a fantastic name for G horns used in drum corps: Competition Bugles. This shows that not only are they NOT the valveless military bugles of the early 20th century, they are also NOT the multi key horns used by the majority of the activity today. I call Bb "sopranos" trumpets, and Bb "contrabasses" tubas. I've been corrected before by someone saying his horn was a contra, and I asked if it was Bb or G. He said Bb, so I said, "It's a tuba. Not a bugle." To me, a group playing on multi-key brass is a marching brass band. A brass band has cornets in Eb, trumpets or cornets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb, horns in F or Eb, baritones, euphoniums in Bb, and tubas in Eb and/or Bb. Todays DCI corps have trumpets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb (Crossmen this season), horns in F, baris and euphs in Bb, and tubas in Bb. Aside from missing the Eb cornet, instrumentation is nearly the same. I think there are plenty of great sounding hornlines that use Bb. But there is a certain presence that is missing. The overtone series of G bugles, and their previous styles of construction, allowed for very deep dark chords in the low brass with very penetrating high brass. Almost organ-like. Yes, you can get the same organ-like quality out of a Bb line, but the overtones just aren't there. To me, the most noticeable voice is the baritone. A G baritone has a much warmer sound in an ensemble than Bb. But once you crank up the volume, they get a trombone like quality. Quite, frankly, this is completely untrue. Manufacturers are using the same tooling to make G bugles as their Bb counterparts. That's part of the reason they have such issues with intonation, because they're just extending tubes instead of really engineering them to have the proper dimensions relative to the key they're in. There's nothing magic about G that makes it a "bugle." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC_Contra Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I think there are plenty of great sounding hornlines that use Bb. But there is a certain presence that is missing. The overtone series of G bugles, and their previous styles of construction, allowed for very deep dark chords in the low brass with very penetrating high brass. Almost organ-like. Yes, you can get the same organ-like quality out of a Bb line, but the overtones just aren't there. To me, the most noticeable voice is the baritone. A G baritone has a much warmer sound in an ensemble than Bb. But once you crank up the volume, they get a trombone like quality. THIS.The overtone series is completely different obviously, and it's the one thing that I *can't* hear now that I used to hear back when I marched. The overtones are what added the... sizzle... to a powerful and in-tune sop line. Hearing the overtones just ringing over a good bari line was wonderful. I remember as soon as I heard the Bb horns in 2000 that I didn't like them - they sounded cold, strident. They lacked the warmth that the G horns had. The trumpets (shudder) were playing way past their range in order to try to keep the same volume level as the previous year, but it just wasn't there and I could tell even from the field; as a fan in the stands later it was pretty obvious. Heck, one of those corps even had little "power rings" attached to their mouthpieces in some sort of weird physics-voodoo attempt at getting more volume. It's also why I feel that the size of corps have increased over the past few years from the 128/135 when I marched to the 150 or so now. It takes 80 Bb brass players to equal the power of the 64 G brass players. What the Bb horns did was level the playing field somewhat. The skill in the old G horns was learning how to control the intonation on those beasts; compensating with the slip valves on the fly on certain notes so that you can keep those overtones popping. And there's just no replacement for experience, or plain skill. So, generalizing here, the experienced/skilled players tend to gravitate to the big corps with the experienced staff; while the lower-ranking corps tend to get the younger/less-skilled players and younger staff. That combination on the G horns meant a lockdown in the activity. The Bb horns leveled the playing field and removed one of the big hurdles to younger players: controlling that horn. Getting used to the pitch center and partials of that G horn when you've been playing on a Bb your musical career. Much easier and lowered the barrier of entry. Consequently, more hornlines are able to sound "mature" sooner in the season, playing in tune with greater ease. And that's contributed to the new faces that have been invading DCI's Top 12 since the introduction of multi-key brass. The only thing I miss is the projection and that homogeneous tone quality the horns had from all the instruments being in the same key, they were more "seamless" to my ears. Arranging is different too. Not for nothing, current hornlines sound great; but every time I put on any of Star of Indiana's later shows and revel in that lushness, that pipe-organ quality is what I miss (1990 - good God). Or 1985-1992 Blue Devils, especially 1988 or 1989 - that big, round, massive wall of sound. I compare that to the hornlines now - and it ain't the kids at all - and it's just not the same for me. But now I'm rambling... ey! Get off my lawn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvah Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I believe 1 reason the G bugle sounds more aggressive than the B flat trumpet is that its pitched a minor third higher. I'm not 100% sure about this so if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate being corrected. I think the tubing of the G bugle is shorter than the B flat variety, making it sound higher. I guess the whole horn line is like this so we gained a minor 3rd at the bottom of the tuba range, and lost a minor third at the top of the sop range when we changed to B flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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