Dave Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 AGREE...but, here we go again. Bugles vs Trumpets vs Key. Who cares? I like "G" because of the conical shape of the horn and the sound and coverage it produces out of doors. Sure...it doesen't slot perfect but, to me Bb is a crutch for slotting. Nothing beats a challange like a good ear. DONE. The End. Well, G bugles are not more "conical" than their Bb counterparts and sopranos, arguably, are actually more cylindrical than a similarly-designed trumpet. Sopranos tend to have a wider throat and narrower bell flare which gives the visual impression of "conical," but the way manufacturers made the horns was to use the same tooling as for the Bb horns but extend the slides the necessary amount to drop the horn's pitch. This is one of the reasons G bugles have the tuning issues they do. We've gone around and around about tuning and sound and all that, I will say that playing a G contra helped me develop a more solid ear to take back to practicing for my performance degree. But at the same time a good teacher can impart those skills to his students no matter the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreelancerAlumni Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Well, G bugles are not more "conical" than their Bb counterparts and sopranos, arguably, are actually more cylindrical than a similarly-designed trumpet. Sopranos tend to have a wider throat and narrower bell flare which gives the visual impression of "conical," but the way manufacturers made the horns was to use the same tooling as for the Bb horns but extend the slides the necessary amount to drop the horn's pitch. This is one of the reasons G bugles have the tuning issues they do. We've gone around and around about tuning and sound and all that, I will say that playing a G contra helped me develop a more solid ear to take back to practicing for my performance degree. But at the same time a good teacher can impart those skills to his students no matter the key. Well, if the horn maker is simply applying Bb tubing and "stretching out" the lengths in order to add the proper lengths to achieve the "G" key, then there sound will suffer. Prime examples of this is the differences in play-ability between Olds Ultra-tones, Kanstules (designed to be "bugles" by a bugle designer, Zig Kanstul) and say a Dynasty bugle, (a stretched out Bb horn). There is a reason why folks call them, Dy-Nasty ! The "conical" shape of the horn comes from the two MOST influential aspects of brass horn design. The lead-pipe and the bell. All the other tubing for ease of construction (the valve sections and accompanied tubing) is almost universally, of the same diameter. there are some exceptions. You cannot base the cylindrical or conical shape by visual examination only. All brass instruments employ the same features (a slide trombone being an exception). A tapered section of the lead pipe, (will vary by length, rate, and size based on the sound design desired) and the rate of taper of the bell section. Shape, size and flare of bell also play as a part of the sound design. Trumpets are considered, Cylindrical in design (even though they also employ a tapered section in the lead-pipe and bell). Coronets, Flugelhorns, French Horns, Bugles are of a conical construction. Longer sections of lead-pipe taper, and to some extent (not all) longer or higher rates of taper in the bell section. Once again, depends on the sound characteristic design. You and I have had this discussion before. You will stand by your experiences and I will stand by mine. The verdict ? What Bugles have stood the test of time. What bugle brands are the most sought after on e-bay and other entities? What brand is being played most by the DCA and Alumni Corps most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreaminMello Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='steelcityrabbit' timestamp='1036216941' post='145558'] Hey, keep the electronics and woodwinds out, and it will be drum corps no matter what key the horns are in. B) [/quote] Couldn't have said it better myself!!! Thanks for the wise words you silly wabbit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Good question. Good retrospective on pre-1850ish brass instruments as well. The reason everyone connotates G with the bugle is because when the first corps were developed post WW1, they used military surplus Bugles and Drums, and the bugles happened to be in the key of-you guessed it-G. The bugles then evolved from the basic miltary bugle. Now, you mentioned the difference between the French Horn and Mellophone Bugles. There was quite a difference. take a look at this piston-rotor French Horn Bugle in G. Hopefully the link works: http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09102/8D8E59074FAC1032862935764972FC265C306C79.html?start=5 Note the bell flare and bell diameter is significantly different from a Mellophone. The lead-pipe also accepts a French Horn Mouthpiece, whereas the mellophone- with the exceptions of the earlier versions by Conn, etc. usually use a Trumpet mouthpiece or a Bach 7C "Mello", which is nothing more than a Bach Trumpet 7C with a slightly resized shank for a modern mellophone. I also have a hunch that the bore is slightly smaller for the French Horn Bugle. They really weren't used much. Piston Rotor bugles tended to be a bit beastly to center tonally, and the French Horns were near uncontrollable, even compared to the other instruments. However-- there are some people who did use them to great effect and success, and the two people I mention are very well respected- You may want to see if you can find a copy of the 1981 (maybe 1980) DCA Championship recording of the Hurricanes, where Pepe Notaro used one of these in "Swing, Swing, Swing". Ray Fallon, which I know comes on and off DCP would know more specifically about 1980 and Pepe's use of the instrument with the Hurcs. He was also well-known for his use of it with the Skyliners many years before. He's likely the most associated person with the instrument, and he worked pretty hard to tame the beast. The other person who would be very knowledgeable about the French Horn Bugle who lurks on DCP once in awhile is Danny Fitzpatrick. Won a DCA Individual title on a piston-slide French Horn bugle in the early '90's and totally blew everyone away with his ability and total facility on the instrument. Hopefully Danny reads this thread and he may able to help you more with any questions. I'm just one of those troublemaking Lead Baritones. I'm sure you know the type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphaba01 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I also would be upset if this was mistaken for a Trumpet! "Mistaken Identity": Does it come in a horncase or a garage.... Elphaba WWW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphaba01 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Good question. Good retrospective on pre-1850ish brass instruments as well. The reason everyone connotates G with the bugle is because when the first corps were developed post WW1, they used military surplus Bugles and Drums, and the bugles happened to be in the key of-you guessed it-G. The bugles then evolved from the basic miltary bugle. Now, you mentioned the difference between the French Horn and Mellophone Bugles. There was quite a difference. take a look at this piston-rotor French Horn Bugle in G. Hopefully the link works: http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09102/8D8E59074FAC1032862935764972FC265C306C79.html?start=5 Note the bell flare and bell diameter is significantly different from a Mellophone. The lead-pipe also accepts a French Horn Mouthpiece, whereas the mellophone- with the exceptions of the earlier versions by Conn, etc. usually use a Trumpet mouthpiece or a Bach 7C "Mello", which is nothing more than a Bach Trumpet 7C with a slightly resized shank for a modern mellophone. I also have a hunch that the bore is slightly smaller for the French Horn Bugle. They really weren't used much. Piston Rotor bugles tended to be a bit beastly to center tonally, and the French Horns were near uncontrollable, even compared to the other instruments. However-- there are some people who did use them to great effect and success, and the two people I mention are very well respected- You may want to see if you can find a copy of the 1981 (maybe 1980) DCA Championship recording of the Hurricanes, where Pepe Notaro used one of these in "Swing, Swing, Swing". Ray Fallon, which I know comes on and off DCP would know more specifically about 1980 and Pepe's use of the instrument with the Hurcs. He was also well-known for his use of it with the Skyliners many years before. He's likely the most associated person with the instrument, and he worked pretty hard to tame the beast. The other person who would be very knowledgeable about the French Horn Bugle who lurks on DCP once in awhile is Danny Fitzpatrick. Won a DCA Individual title on a piston-slide French Horn bugle in the early '90's and totally blew everyone away with his ability and total facility on the instrument. Hopefully Danny reads this thread and he may able to help you more with any questions. I'm just one of those troublemaking Lead Baritones. I'm sure you know the type. "Piston Rotor": Thats almost too "New Fangled". WAAAAAAYYYY "back in da day" we had GD piston SLIDE bugles, the "Slides" starting life as TUNING SLIDES and then SANDPAPPERED for chromatics. Getzen came out with actuall "Slide" bugles in their "Delux" line around 1959 or so. I thought I was in HEAVEN when I finally got one...... WITH A CASE!!!!! Hy Drietzer told us about a device called a "Crook" which was used on pre WWII "Straight" bugles to get the different tones. I can't imagine how they worked that one..... Elphaba WWW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozarkbugler Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 "Mistaken Identity": Does it come in a horncase or a garage.... Elphaba WWW and what key is the horn in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 take a look at this piston-rotor French Horn Bugle in G. http://www.europeana...79.html?start=5 While both Olds models and the King K-60 were great-playing bugles, the museum has seen fit to archive a Getzen. The Getzen FHs were all made with trombone bell tooling. So were their infamous "Frumpets", a marching horn in descant F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 A Soprano is a term that comes from being the soprano voice in the choir. The Soprano in drum corps is in fact a trumpet keyed in G. None of the "modern" day instruments are actual "bugles". It's just bell front trumpets, mellos, baris, euphs, and tubas keyed in G. and trumpets, baris, euph, tubas in Bb, and Mellos in F. But I honestly don't see an issue with calling it drum and bugle corps. The instruments have just evolved since the start of the activity. I mean drums have evolved quite a bit.... marching drums are continuously evolving, and the addition of instruments since grounding pits. I mean should be change the name to Percussion and Brass corps? Because it sure as hell ain't just drums now. Percussion, Brass, and Prancing Spinners, Tossers, and Dancing Corps?? Drum and Bugle Corps sound a bit better. And the basics are still there. Drums and Brass. The horns have different characteristics just like a Bb trumpet and a C trumpet, and a Bb, F, or C tuba. The overtone series stuff people were talking about might have something to do with it... but you don't hear the overtones unless everything is in tune. I believe that the sound and feel was different. Just like an orchestral section playing C trumpets on one piece and then playing Bb on another. Not only does the player feel a difference you can hear a difference, and the key of the horns aren't even that far apart. Bb to G will be even more of a difference. I personally think hornlines sound better than they ever have. They may not be as loud, but I don't see the reason behind that being the horn. A lot of it is a different style of teaching. I don't necessarily agree with the change. I've noticed the change at high schools and colleges. No one knows how to play loud anymore. Many bands sacrifice volume because they are afraid to explore those upper dynamics. I feel like the art of playing loud with a good tone quality and in tune is lost on a lot of kids. Either educators don't know how to teach it, or they have never experienced it themselves. There is also build up philosophy when learning a piece of music in an ensemble. Build up tempo and dynamics as you go. You don't go up to the next level until it is perfect. A lot of younger musicians are never taught to play out. Hell I have been in a room where a band director discourage a player from playing at a forte because his sound was too harsh. And he never went the next step to try and help the kid with his sound. Also a problem of no one practicing loud. If you don't practice loud you can't perform loud. Nowadays brass players are almost too careful with their chops. To much "saving" it going on. Yeah there is saving it in a sound check right before a gig... but I feel like a lot of players save it a little to much and short change themselves, so now their endurance will never be enough, because they are always saving it. Practicing everything at mezzo forte in a practice room isn't going to help. If you are a brass player, and you don't have the string players banging on the wall in the practice room next door then you have a problem. If your tone spreads or splits, and you have a problem holding pitch at loud volumes, that just means that you need to practice it more!!!! Not shy away!!! Drum corps hornlines should be playing loud from the first camp. Read the dynamics. Sure play stuff at half volume to hear things in tune once or twice... but then you gotta play it at the upper volumes or else you will never be able to do it!!! You have to practice it to play it!!!! Freshman coming up at my university ask "how do you play so loud?" It's because I practice it. Yes you need to be able to play the bottom dynamics just as well. And the solution is. TO PRACTICE IT! I've never been a brass player to ease into something. I was never taught that way. You have to jump into it being agressive. That's the only way to see how much work you still have to do. You slow down the stuff you need work on. Technical passages. But how do you know how much work you have if you have never tried it at full? Even while slowing it down, I'll take it back up just to see how much I still need to do. There needs to be more of all hands in initially. Then reel it in. Clean it up. Especially with DCI brass lines. How are you going to fix balance blend and intonation at the upper dynamics if you aren't playing at those dynamics. I don't know. Some how I got rambling.. I'm done now. I was also interrupted about 10 times in my typing process... I'll edit later, hehe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 This is also one old thread... interesting to read the beginning of the thread, when the switch was still quite new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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