Scores And Events

[hurcwave]

DCI has a staff capable of maintaining their website through the huge amount of statistics they cover each season. I certainly would not expect them to have a separate system to manage DCA sheets. I compliment them for agreeing to use DCA sheets and compliment DCA for their cooperation in this endeavor.

It has however, always been my personal goal that all "all aged" corps be judged on DCA sheets - no matter where the show - viva la difference...

Unfortunately, the chain of communications is probably not there to get the information to Glen Johnson in a timely manner from shows run in other areas. Also, Glen is always a tad busy this time of the year and gets very little help in his efforts to update the DCA website...

That being said... I would be in favor of them listing the recaps of outside senior shows judged on dca sheets.

There is a consideration that must be recognized however... since the DCI judges (most of them at least) have not gone through DCA training on use of the sheets, tolerance levels and numbers management, I believe the sheets and scores given are ball park at best and most likely quite a bit off the mark - very likely low... This would be a normal expectation to be a bit severe in your expectations as a judge when you have prepared that night to judge Santa Clara and Concord. It is not wrong. It is just the way it works. Therefore, to list them on the DCA web site opposite scores from fully sanctioned shows adjudicated by judges who are prepared to work DCA all summer, may be doing a disservice to the corps as listing the numbers together on the same site would invite comparison and that comparison might (would!) be totally invalid - and even possibly detrimental to the corps... Very likely showing them in a invalid negative way.

However, at least using the correct sheets for the all aged corps is a tremendous improvement over giving them input via the DCI sheets that is simply "invalid" considering that they need to improve their program via the guidelines of using the DCA sheets to have the seasonal success they desire.

As always there is multiple considerations to every story...

FYI - The DCI judges were given a crash course at the DCI judges clinic a month back on how to use the DCA sheets. And if you look at a few names that judged , you will see some that have been associated with DCA and have judged DCA contests..

[sop16]

Tom:

People are going to be making those comparisons anyway. Might as well make it easy for them. :)

Also, the DCI judges that judge the DCA corps on DCA sheets are supposedly DCA trained. Not only that, but it seems that in the midwest at least the judges are judging different captions when they are using the DCI or DCA sheets, so it's not like they have to compare exactly the same things from DCI corps to DCA corps, and hey, last time I checked, MBI scored higher than Madison Scouts on Saturday, which I know means absolutely nothing about anything, but it indicates that the DCA corps aren't necessarily being disadvantaged by being judged by the same judges at least.

Of course, not even simultaneous shows judged by different judges who only judge DCA all summer can really be compared on par, but until certain corps meet certain other corps on a level playing field, so to speak, it is the only possible way to make any comparisons at all, other than the rumours and innuendo people love to spread around, which tend not to be very quantitative in nature. :)

It'd be cool to see scores for all DCA corps, especially those judged on DCA sheets, on the scores section of the DCA website, if it's possible and when there's time, or perhaps even just links to the DCI shows where they can be found, so people can be reminded that it's not just the east coast corps that are competing during the summer. To be honest, when I marched out east, I didn't even know that midwest and west coast corps were even competing at all in June and July.

[TomPeashey]

All of you make good points and I'm thrilled to hear of the DCA clinic work by DCI judges. Please remember I'm retired and living in the NW away from most of the action. Don't get me wrong, I said I would be in favor of DCA posting all scores from All Aged contests. I just pointed out some - what I believe to be - valid points of concern.

I also have always argued that any good judge can work any system with just a few minor instructions - like how the criteria scale is to be used. I mention that one item because the DCA criteria scale is one of the greatest and most unique parts of its adjudication system (thank you Ken Sherry). In the past, it was often argued that to ask a judge to use 2 systems on the same night was too much. My answer to that is: "to say that they CAN'T use 2 systems on the same night is an insult to their ability and training."

Comparison of any scores from different panels is difficult at best. You are correct. The show "dynamics" will dictate differences. Who's on first for instance, is always a major factor. We teach every judge that the first number he puts down in a contest is probably his most important of the night because ranking and rating the entire rest of the show will depend on that score. The dictates of Ranking and Rating the contest you are judging will cause differences.

Start too high and your rating (spreads) may be considerably off as you might run out of room to work within the box categories. Start too low and although your ratings may be right, you final numbers will be lower than they might have otherwise been.

No one ever said it was easy...

[melligene]

All of you make good points and I'm thrilled to hear of the DCA clinic work by DCI judges. Please remember I'm retired and living in the NW away from most of the action. Don't get me wrong, I said I would be in favor of DCA posting all scores from All Aged contests. I just pointed out some - what I believe to be - valid points of concern.

I also have always argued that any good judge can work any system with just a few minor instructions - like how the criteria scale is to be used. I mention that one item because the DCA criteria scale is one of the greatest and most unique parts of its adjudication system (thank you Ken Sherry). In the past, it was often argued that to ask a judge to use 2 systems on the same night was too much. My answer to that is: "to say that they CAN'T use 2 systems on the same night is an insult to their ability and training."

Comparison of any scores from different panels is difficult at best. You are correct. The show "dynamics" will dictate differences. Who's on first for instance, is always a major factor. We teach every judge that the first number he puts down in a contest is probably his most important of the night because ranking and rating the entire rest of the show will depend on that score. The dictates of Ranking and Rating the contest you are judging will cause differences.

Start too high and your rating (spreads) may be considerably off as you might run out of room to work within the box categories. Start too low and although your ratings may be right, you final numbers will be lower than they might have otherwise been.

No one ever said it was easy...

Call me old fashioned but this is a good reason to go back to the "TIC" system.

The rules then were very simple........All corps' started with 100 points. Still with me?

Any distraction from perfection was considered an error worth 1/10 of a point. Color violations (basically any disrespect to the American Flag) was 1 full point.

Bottom line with this system was that all Corps' were created equal until a mistake was made. I thought it was pretty simple and still do. But that's just me.

[sop16]

In that system how do you account for the varying difficulty level and effect of the shows? You could get corps playing boring easy stuff and they'd get 100 because they wouldn't make any mistakes. It definitely wouldn't be all that great to watch though.

[LegalEagle50]

Call me old fashioned but this is a good reason to go back to the "TIC" system.

The rules then were very simple........All corps' started with 100 points. Still with me?

Any distraction from perfection was considered an error worth 1/10 of a point. Color violations (basically any disrespect to the American Flag) was 1 full point.

Bottom line with this system was that all Corps' were created equal until a mistake was made. I thought it was pretty simple and still do. But that's just me.

i know it will be said it is because i am from a different generation but i am incredibly glad the mess that was once the tic systems is long dead. i'm sure this will cause a flame war so i'm sliding on my aspestos suit, but i really think those robot dogs and monkeys etc. that you wind up were what you got for corps performances back under that system. i've watched old tapes and IMO it doesn't feel that there was much creativity, if any, going on with those shows.

now if you'll excuse me ~ i must go warn the postman about the mailbombs sure to come my way. :P

[melligene]

In that system how do you account for the varying difficulty level and effect of the shows? You could get corps playing boring easy stuff and they'd get 100 because they wouldn't make any mistakes. It definitely wouldn't be all that great to watch though.

Without going to much further into this.......there were what we called General Effect Captions( degree of difficulty, best use of, and so on) that covered that. As fair as the judges try to be today and as good as they are I think it puts them in a bind.....all scoring starts (basically at ZERO) and builds from there. To opinionated from my perspective but that's just how I see it. If you really suck you could possibly get that Zero. Correct? Sorry If I opened a can of worms. Just my opinion.

[Jeff Ream]

Call me old fashioned but this is a good reason to go back to the "TIC" system.

The rules then were very simple........All corps' started with 100 points. Still with me?

Any distraction from perfection was considered an error worth 1/10 of a point. Color violations (basically any disrespect to the American Flag) was 1 full point.

Bottom line with this system was that all Corps' were created equal until a mistake was made. I thought it was pretty simple and still do. But that's just me.

except everyone's tolerance for ticks varied. your tick may not be my tick.

here's my question:

at most shows, DCI only has one percussion judge...for DCA corps, who does percussion ensemble?

[sop16]

I answered the percussion ensemble question above.

[MikeD]

Without going to much further into this.......there were what we called General Effect Captions( degree of difficulty, best use of, and so on) that covered that.

Actually, not really. The analysis captions covered the demand/content type of issues mentioned, not GE.