Why can't we let the Cadets be the Cadets?

[George]

BUT.. just because someone doesn't necessarily like amps and singing in DCI, that's not an automatic "fit" for DCA.

I'm not a big fan of amps and singing but DCA is not really my cup of tea, either.

If I'm going to spend money on drum corps in the summer, it's still going to be DCI. Just my personal preference -- I find more entertainment watching those kids do things that are amazing and new and fresh (even if it's not what I always thought was new and amazing and fresh -- or if I don't LIKE new, amazing and fresh) than I do watching senior corps do things that other corps did 10 or 15 years ago. Sure they do it with full time jobs and less practice time.. but as a fan who just goes to a few shows, I'm not really thinking about that kind of equation.. I'm just looking at what's on the field in front of me and saying, "oohh.. that was just like Phantom 1996.." or whatever.

Stef

I'm right there with ya babe. B)

DCA just aint my cup of tea - I really love watching what these young people can achieve and I've long believed its the best youth activity in the world. And last year at finals my jaw dropped open as I thought to myself "did I really just hear THAT while I was seeing THAT??"

[greggmanX-Kingsmen]

I appreciate the sincerity of your post but not your hypocrisy. You’re telling everybody to stop bashing the changes, which have occurred in Drum Corps yet you say;

“It is no longer" Drum and bugle corps : Tradition, history, repetitivness"

In other words, YOU can have an opinion but we can’t. We’re entitled to our opinion as much as you. We marched before you were born and put in as much blood, sweat and tears as the kids that march today. We built the activity you enjoy today and we don’t like amps, singing, or woodwind instruments.

Deal with it.

Greg Parvin

Anaheim Kingsmen

[bawker]

The sad fact is that the Troopers failed because they did not change along with everyone else. But the Facts are here. DCI IS CHANGING. And if you don't like it, get left behind like the Troopers, or keep moving.

Patently false.

They "failed" because of tax reporting problems for the past few years, not due to playing G bugles. The Cadets would have been put under as well by those same problems at the management level.

Please get over your rush to bury the past....you are no more the messenger of the "next" design shift of drum corps anymore than anyone else here.

The market will bear what the market will bear...no matter what your opinion.

Edited June 25, 2006 by bawker

[Rocketman]

I am in no way saying that you cannot dislike a corps, or their program.

Gee, really? Looked that way to me. My "opinion" is this, the corps with "influance" will try to get anything passed that they "believe" will better the activity. Because these "influential" corps are "successful" or are at least rewarded for thier efforts, anyone that wants to stay "competitive" has to do the same. As a blanket statement not directed at any one corps, I don't need singing or amplification to enjoy a show. They do not, "for me", enhance my enjoyment level. I need music, not notes, to make my experience complete. The problem is, for these corps to do the circus act visuals we are now accustomed to, it seems, music has been replaced by notes. Now, you may say, "those notes ARE music." If, that's the case then, I guess, the choice of music is not to my taste. But generally, if I can't ascertain a melody, you've lost my attention.

In short, melodic music does not lend itself to the crazy visuals of the Cavies or Cadets, and it looks like, again, we will be seeing those two, for sure, in the top 3, with BD. I got to hear BD from the back and was able to hear some melodic moments.

But lastly, (to add fuel to the fire) the Cadets don't wan't to be a "drum corps!" They want to do what they want to do, so do it in BOA!

(Down from my soap box)

RM - "I heard a song that ain't got no melody"

ampssuck

Edited June 25, 2006 by Rocketman

[thelittleman]

"Singing doesn't belong" is an opinion..."singing does belong" is a fact. It's legal...and in fact has been so for decades prior to mics and amps. So therefore, saying that singing does belong would be a fact, as is saying snare drumming does belong, or mellophones belong or...etc...to any legal element...

No, "singing does belong" is an opinion, just as much "singing doesn't belong." However, "singing is allowed," is a fact. But just because something is allowed doesn't mean it belongs in the activity. Marching a drumline of 50 members is allowed, so is it a fact that it belongs? My opinion on that would have to be no, but others have a full right to say yes if they choose.

Edited June 25, 2006 by thelittleman

[bawker]

Furthermore, here's a little add on for those that think that somehow we're witnessing some giant artistic leap that is beyond the ken of the average drum corps spectator. I seem to get that perception lately on here from some.

News flash: What you're seeing is nothing new. It's not new to the idiom, the Cadets are not "zigging" us away from things as they did in 1983, and this isn't a foray into parts unknown in the marching arts.

This year and last, the Cadets have borrowed heavily from the BOA "concept" type show that is popular in Grand National competition, even going so far this year as to have a vocalist from one of last years bands on board.

The simple fact is thus...drum corps got left behind in the concept of "innovation" as it relates to design and design staff nowadays. The Cadets are just now catching up to where top level high school bands have been for many, many years now.

Additionally, this type of "borrowing" from the high school forums is nothing new....there's always been tradeoffs, moves swiped, and so on over the years.

The difference is that the majority of innovations that you see on the DCI field now are by and large already championship tested BOA ones....and that includes designers, drill moves and show concepts.

The Cavaliers, to be quite honest, were the first ones to seize on this, and the first one it paid dividends for. 2000 was a start, but 2001-2003, with D. Saucedo, et al and the original music and seamless visual/musical intergration... really brought home the fact that in order to start playing the game a "new" way, drum corps had to be the follower, and not the leader.

Cadets picked up on this in 2005, used the Mona Shores concept as a springboard, and added on to create their product.

Certainly, the execution levels are higher, and the shows are more polished...but that's apples and oranges to this debate that somehow the Cadets are dragging us all kicking and screaming into something new.

Sorry to say, the Cavaliers were there first.

Right now, the choice for drum corps is thus....

Do you do what you've done well the past few years even better with these new tricks, as the Cavaliers do? It seems to work for the Green team, as they don't get called out for abandoning their past a lot by most and did well in 2005.

Do you just keep doing what you've done, and let this pass you by, so to speak, as Phantom does? Well, a lot of folks like Phantom, and they placed pretty highly last year. That seems to work too for now.

Or, do you decide to embrace the blur between the fall and summer marching arts totally, and go for broke? It worked for the Cadets in 2005.

So, as you can see...there's still a lot of different ways to process this design shift.

There is no "correct" way....there might be a way that scores a little higher, but then again, Star of Indiana 1993/Suncoast Sound 1988/insert your "avant garde" corps here never won the title, either.

So, be glad that there are these choices...but don't dare try to assume that your "way" is the gospel.

Elitism sucks, especially in such a small little niche as the marching arts occupies. Let's try not to go there, eh? :)

Edited June 25, 2006 by bawker

[zig zig ZAG]

Bawker - I don't recall that 2000 cavaliers show as being all original music. I do recall it being a comparatively easy horn book, the main theme a simple one-valve slur, and quite repetitive. In general, it's much harder to take something written for, say, violins and transcribe and perform that on a football field, than to compose something with marching in mind.

And as for seamless visual/musical integration, try madison '88, cadets '87, star '93, cadets '85 or '05, or a dozen other shows by a dozen other corps.

And the cadets didn't "steal" a concept from Mona Shores High School.

Who is Mona Shores' designer, who tried out his ideas first for them, then took them to an entirely different level with the Cadets?

I think his name is Marc Sylvester, who's been designing for the Cadets for a couple decades, right?

####, even JS Bach "stole" ideas from himself scores of times (pardon the pun).

You can't make the argument that dci is now following high school, or that all corps are now following the cavaliers, or whatever.

It's an organic process. Give and take. Always, thankfully, moving forward.

THAT's why we all should stop the categorical statements, and sit back, and open our minds a bit.

Is that so hard?

the discussion continues...

[GMichael1230]

Bawker - I don't recall that 2000 cavaliers show as being all original music. I do recall it being a comparatively easy horn book, the main theme a simple one-valve slur, and quite repetitive. In general, it's much harder to take something written for, say, violins and transcribe and perform that on a football field, than to compose something with marching in mind.

And as for seamless visual/musical integration, try madison '88, cadets '87, star '93, cadets '85 or '05, or a dozen other shows by a dozen other corps.

And the cadets didn't "steal" a concept from Mona Shores High School.

Who is Mona Shores' designer, who tried out his ideas first for them, then took them to an entirely different level with the Cadets?

I think his name is Marc Sylvester, who's been designing for the Cadets for a couple decades, right?

####, even JS Bach "stole" ideas from himself scores of times (pardon the pun).

You can't make the argument that dci is now following high school, or that all corps are now following the cavaliers, or whatever.

It's an organic process. Give and take. Always, thankfully, moving forward.

THAT's why we all should stop the categorical statements, and sit back, and open our minds a bit.

Is that so hard?

the discussion continues...

Mona SHores HS had the concept on the field first, MArc & Co. Took the idea to the Cadets AFTER Mona SHores had completed their program, hence Cadets did it AFTER Mona SHores did it. Not the same step for noter, however, they did not originate it, nor did they become the first to bring it to the marching world. Who created it is irelevant. Cadets used material previously done by a high school marching band. Hardly inovative, or ground breaking.

~G~

[bawker]

Bawker - I don't recall that 2000 cavaliers show as being all original music. I do recall it being a comparatively easy horn book, the main theme a simple one-valve slur, and quite repetitive. In general, it's much harder to take something written for, say, violins and transcribe and perform that on a football field, than to compose something with marching in mind.

And as for seamless visual/musical integration, try madison '88, cadets '87, star '93, cadets '85 or '05, or a dozen other shows by a dozen other corps.

And the cadets didn't "steal" a concept from Mona Shores High School.

Who is Mona Shores' designer, who tried out his ideas first for them, then took them to an entirely different level with the Cadets?

I think his name is Marc Sylvester, who's been designing for the Cadets for a couple decades, right?

####, even JS Bach "stole" ideas from himself scores of times (pardon the pun).

You can't make the argument that dci is now following high school, or that all corps are now following the cavaliers, or whatever.

It's an organic process. Give and take. Always, thankfully, moving forward.

THAT's why we all should stop the categorical statements, and sit back, and open our minds a bit.

Is that so hard?

the discussion continues...

First, I simply said the concept was approached in 2000, with refining in 2001-2003, not that the Cavaliers had the marketplace cornered on it. Didn't say everyone was following the Cavaliers, simply that they took advantage of the BOA/DCI synergy first. As to your older examples of good "intergrated" shows, well....thanks for recognizing that there are some older shows that can do both, even though they apparently have one foot in the grave according to some in this thread. :P

The Cadets may be able to "transcribe" violins parts, but in the same way that Saucedo writes originals for the Cavaliers, Bocook bends the compostion to what the visual needs as well. There's no difference...."Medea" was not played note-for-note last year by Cadets anymore than "Niagara Falls" was by the Cavaliers in 2000.

Secondly, nowhere did I say there was "stealing" in regards to the Cadets 2005 show. I'm well aware of Marc Sylvesters involvement with the Mona Shores show, and his service to the Cadets. Neither of which disproves the fact that the concept was taken, and expanded on.

Your post says nothing to the contrary, and to be honest....if you read between the lines from the end of my post, I think I was probably suggesting we stop with the categorical statements anyway.

Cadets are right, Phantom is right, Cavaliers are right, Renegades are right, Troopers are right. Anyone who gets on a field and plays has it right.

The only people who are wrong are those who find superiority in one way or another and then use that to beat down everyone else who doesn't agree with their ideas.

Edited June 25, 2006 by bawker

[MikeD]

No Mike, singing(through a microphone, because acoustic voice isnt the issue here) is "allowed", thats the fact. Wether it belongs or not is still an opinion, its only your opinion that is belongs, to others it doesnt belong all opinions.

~G~

Sorry, disagree. Singing, micced or unmicced belongs in drum corps as much as any other legal instrument. Whether you or I like a particlular use..or even if you don't like it at all makes no difference. Those ARE opinions. But, as it is legal...it belongs...fact.