dbc03 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 My beef isn't so much with the judges as it is with the judgING. What makes a score a score? Sure, we have these sheets explaining what the "boxes" mean... but what does that mean? What led to the number inside that box? WHY was corps A a 15.1 and corps be a 15.7 - especially if I, Joe Fan, saw it a different way? Am I missing something? There are many of us who would like to do more than just go to a show and clap and say, "That was nice," and go home. I think an entrepeneurial type would do very well to create a webcast featuring judges and video of REAL (albeit past) corps performances - and EDUCATING us as to what made corps A score higher than corps B. I would pay good money to watch that. The judges shouldn't have to explain themselves to Joe Fan. The only people they have to explain themselves to are the corps (during critique) and the DCI officials in charge of judging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCfan76 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 The judges shouldn't have to explain themselves to Joe Fan. The only people they have to explain themselves to are the corps (during critique) and the DCI officials in charge of judging. I see your point, but it's Joe Fan that buys the tickets and funds the activity. When I watched the Olympics, the network had a pretty good explaination (complete with slow motion video) on what was being judged during gymnastics and figure skating. Why can't we do the same thing here? I think a little education would go a long way. Not that a judge needs to "justify" his/her score to me - but at least educate me as to the general reasons for a particular number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bldbrkr Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Some things to clarify... There are critiques held in figure skating. Figure skating judges train for a very, very long time compared to a DCI judge. The process is much more involved with testing and trialing over many years. We don't say a judge is "explaining themselves to the fan" It's referred to as educating the public on our judging system. The new judging system (IJS) is quite complex. Corps used to compete against a book of criteria. As that evolved, so did the judging. I don't know of any olympic sport that you could compare the style of DCI/DCA/marching band judging to. Most ports usually have an element comparison or time trials. John Your friendly skating coach and Crossmen Alumni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84skyrydr Posted July 30, 2006 Author Share Posted July 30, 2006 (edited) 76 fan, I am thanking you. You are the first one to get my question. I am not asking why my corps did this or that, just how do you decide that they were worth a 15 and not a 15.1. I love the activity and like every corps show that I have seen this year, some more than others and I could tell you why with each show. Why can't the judges. With the ease of the computer it would be very easy to take 15 - 30 minutes out of your day to give a synopsis. You can say they don't owe anybody an explanation, I am saying that by spending over a 2500 on merchandise and shows this year ( Normal Il, Rockford Il, Madison Wi, Dubuque Ia, San Antonio and all three of the finals week shows, shirts from BD, Cavaliers, Phantom, Cadets, Crown, Colts, Scouts, Blue coats, Boston, Blue Star, Pioneer, Southwind, DVDS and CDs from Cavaliers2,BD3, PR3, Cadets4, Crossmen2, Crown2, Boston1, SCV3, Bluecoats2, the legacy series, 2005 Championship dvd, patches from EVERY corps and gas money in every 13th through 21st jar, not to mention being a platinum supporter of the Colts.......THEY DO. Edited July 30, 2006 by 84skyrydr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Scott Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Yes, I am a Colt alum from the 80s along with the Guardsmen and Sky Ryders, but I am not pushing for them to get anywhere they don't deserve. I am just questioning why judges can't have some kind of fan forum so the fans can know why the drumline got a 15.5, or why the A corps was better than the Z corps in a certain area. Do I think that judges cheat? No, but I do think that they go into a show with a pretty good concieved notion about where any certain corps should place and score. I have seen that some corps tend to get better scores while not appearing to the stadium full of former corps members to have been the better corps on any given night. Like I said before the Colts /Spirit fight for the final spot should be between the two corps on field performance AT the time of said performance, not based on the last week or twos performances overall, hence POLITICS. I would guess that the reason judges do not spend time on fan forums, is probably because between judging, traveling, and their other life (be it insurance salesman, band director, or overall family person), the per diem they receive for their work is probably not worth the amount of time they would spend, or grief they would receive from fans who would do nothing more than continually question their ability to adjudicate. I'm sure the subliminal conversation in critique has said that many times. Again, my thoughts. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecubeguy Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I would guess that the reason judges do not spend time on fan forums, is probably because between judging, traveling, and their other life (be it insurance salesman, band director, or overall family person), the per diem they receive for their work is probably not worth the amount of time they would spend, or grief they would receive from fans who would do nothing more than continually question their ability to adjudicate. I'm sure the subliminal conversation in critique has said that many times. Again, my thoughts. Chris I have to agree with you. They (the adjudicators) have other lives outside of the process. The corps are judged on their performance that particular evening. When the post contest meeting is over, they (the adjudicators) either have to travel to the next show or resume their lives at home. I really do not think there is a political agenda anywhere in the DCI judging community. This year most of the corps are having an excellent season. The performances are great and it is a good time to be an audience member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 aside from the occasional Chuck King screw up, i think they usually get it right. this year i finally feel that some corps arent getting breaks solely on name, but i thinkthat in a few cases it has happened. Overall tho, i feel they do a realy great job with the criteria they are given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCfan76 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 76 fan, I am thanking you. You are the first one to get my question. I am not asking why my corps did this or that, just how do you decide that they were worth a 15 and not a 15.1. I love the activity and like every corps show that I have seen this year, some more than others and I could tell you why with each show. Why can't the judges. With the ease of the computer it would be very easy to take 15 - 30 minutes out of your day to give a synopsis. You can say they don't owe anybody an explanation, I am saying that by spending over a 2500 on merchandise and shows this year ( Normal Il, Rockford Il, Madison Wi, Dubuque Ia, San Antonio and all three of the finals week shows, shirts from BD, Cavaliers, Phantom, Cadets, Crown, Colts, Scouts, Blue coats, Boston, Blue Star, Pioneer, Southwind, DVDS and CDs from Cavaliers2,BD3, PR3, Cadets4, Crossmen2, Crown2, Boston1, SCV3, Bluecoats2, the legacy series, 2005 Championship dvd, patches from EVERY corps and gas money in every 13th through 21st jar, not to mention being a platinum supporter of the Colts.......THEY DO. Well it just made sense to me I guess. It doesn't have to be a judge - and it could be done only for the "major" shows, but I would love it if someone explained the meaning of a 15.1 vs 15 in a particular caption. Give me an example - something I could look for next time. I'm not questioning the score or the judge, just asking where the points come from and what they mean. The more we understand, the less growsing we will do, and the better fans we will become! Although, 84sky, you look like a pretty darn good fan already!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Well it just made sense to me I guess.It doesn't have to be a judge - and it could be done only for the "major" shows, but I would love it if someone explained the meaning of a 15.1 vs 15 in a particular caption. Give me an example - something I could look for next time. I'm not questioning the score or the judge, just asking where the points come from and what they mean. The more we understand, the less growsing we will do, and the better fans we will become! Although, 84sky, you look like a pretty darn good fan already!!! The way it has been explained to me (by someone who knows what he is talking about) is that it's all based on spread more than anything. Corps A gets a 14.9 in Brass as a starting point for the brass scores based upon their performance. Corps B goes on and performs better than Corps A, and the judge decides that Corps B was .2 better than Corps A in Brass, giving them a 15.1 Corps C goes on and the judge feels like they were .4 worse than Corps A, so they get a 14.5 So on and so forth for the entire lineup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Quality Matters Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Personally, I don't think the judges have the time or inclination to justify themselves to thousands of individual fans (nor should they have to). You think things get volatile between fans on the Internet? Imagine the flame-fest a judges' discussion forum would be. Bumped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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