In response to "chopped up" musical lines

[LockePoetic]

This topic has been inspired by the numerous posts on the "Cavaliers 2006" thread. There seem to be a fair amount of people posting on this forum that think that the music of corps these days, including The Cavaliers, BD, BK, etc, is "chopped up" with short phrases and sound effects substituting for "longer phrases with depth." And more than once people have mentioned how the hornline doesn't play as much, and have used this as their justification that the music and phrases are shallow.

BUT THE HORNLINE IS NOT THE ONLY SECTION THAT PRODUCES MUSIC ON THE FIELD!!!!!!!!!!

They are only 1/3 of the music score, and the music effect is generated from the ensemble. True, they are traditionally the primary carriers of the melody on the field, but disregarding the contributions of the pit and battery to building musical phrases is shortsighted and, frankly, ignorant. Many of the great composers that have been thrown around on this message board - including Mahler, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Barber, Bernstein, especially Bernstein - none of these guys have restricted the lyrical and melodic passages to one voice in the orchestra. Phrases are passed around from violin to trumpet to french horn to harp to flute. And those melodic phrases aren't necessarily linear and easily followed. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is a great example of this. Listen to the climax of the sacrifice and try to tell me a linear melody exists. Also, listen to it and try to tell me you don't "connect" with it on a visceral level. It would be a difficult argument in either case.

On the drum corps field, the luxury of 20+ instrumental voices does not exist. Instead of strings and the variety of sounds that occur in the woodwinds, we have a brassline, a battery, and a pit. So instead of passing melodic lines from the strings to the woodwinds to the brass, you pass it from the brass to the battery to the front ensemble. Instead of powerful brass chords underneath technical string lines, you have powerful brass chords underneath technical keyboard passages. So while some may interpret the modern drum corps lines to be "choppy" really that's because arrangers nowadays are trying to incorporate more of the music into the front ensemble and battery. If done well, this can be very effective. But like all disciplines, some do it better than others. And a few do it exceedingly well.

2006 provided two pretty good extremes between musical integration between the three sections. It is my belief, and I think a look at the score and at what the design staff has constistently repeated was there goal, that The Cavaliers tried to achieve a level of total integration in the musical package. If you follow the music, there are some fairly obvious points where the brass lines are taken directly into the battery. In the opener backfield section, there is a great amount of acoustic interplay between the low brass and the metals in the pit and battery. Wired was all about interlocking parts, visually and musically. And the bass line grooved like none other. It fit the 5/4 structure perfectly with the rim shots in the snares. (PS Wired was adapted from a Marsalis piece so go easy on Saucedo on that one) The ballad is more of a brass piece, but please listen to it again if you can't hear the three distinct, melodic and interlocking lines as they crescendo to the big hit. One of those melodies is repeated by the pit but made more dissonant and ominous at the beginning of the Machine Age. In the giant propeller move, the trumpet line is taken into the pit, and at one point was echoed in the tenor line. I'm sure there is more, but these segments, I think, give a pretty good example of the depth and integration of their musical ensemble.

Whereas if you look at the 2006 Cadets, there were very significant sections of the show where the hornline played and the battery did very little, or vice versa. Heck, there was literally a whole movement of the show dedicated to the percussion section. And the ballad was even more of an acapella brass piece than The Cavaliers. Now why was this ballad not praised for its depth? for its long phrases? It certainly had both as far as chordal structure and the way it developed. Yet, for some reason this movement is overlooked when the arguments rage about how long phrases are better for drum corps. It might be the singer, but personally I applaud The Cadets for their ballad. They saw a chance to add a color to their ensemble and they went for it. Now, say what you will about its result, but it was an adventurous move and I think a lot of people learned from their experience. However, this movement lost its effect because the percussion was dropped for this movement. Last year's ballad was so, so effective because the drums complemented the brass. History has shown us what the effect scores do when integration is taken out of the picture.

So before you try to hack this post apart, please listen to one or two corps from the past couple of years and try to extend your idea of a musical line beyond the brass. I'm not saying there aren't shows out there that don't have non-melodic, disjunct musical lines, but I'm also saying a lot of corps aren't getting credit where credit is due.

[Halcyon122]

[OMello1]

Well thank God someone pointed this out. I've been thinking this for years...melody exists in more places than the hornline...

M

[Triple Forte]

This topic has been inspired by the numerous posts on the "Cavaliers 2006" thread. There seem to be a fair amount of people posting on this forum that think that the music of corps these days, including The Cavaliers, BD, BK, etc, is "chopped up" with short phrases and sound effects substituting for "longer phrases with depth." And more than once people have mentioned how the hornline doesn't play as much, and have used this as their justification that the music and phrases are shallow.

BUT THE HORNLINE IS NOT THE ONLY SECTION THAT PRODUCES MUSIC ON THE FIELD!!!!!!!!!!

They are only 1/3 of the music score, and the music effect is generated from the ensemble. True, they are traditionally the primary carriers of the melody on the field, but disregarding the contributions of the pit and battery to building musical phrases is shortsighted and, frankly, ignorant. Many of the great composers that have been thrown around on this message board - including Mahler, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Barber, Bernstein, especially Bernstein - none of these guys have restricted the lyrical and melodic passages to one voice in the orchestra. Phrases are passed around from violin to trumpet to french horn to harp to flute. And those melodic phrases aren't necessarily linear and easily followed. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is a great example of this. Listen to the climax of the sacrifice and try to tell me a linear melody exists. Also, listen to it and try to tell me you don't "connect" with it on a visceral level. It would be a difficult argument in either case.

On the drum corps field, the luxury of 20+ instrumental voices does not exist. Instead of strings and the variety of sounds that occur in the woodwinds, we have a brassline, a battery, and a pit. So instead of passing melodic lines from the strings to the woodwinds to the brass, you pass it from the brass to the battery to the front ensemble. Instead of powerful brass chords underneath technical string lines, you have powerful brass chords underneath technical keyboard passages. So while some may interpret the modern drum corps lines to be "choppy" really that's because arrangers nowadays are trying to incorporate more of the music into the front ensemble and battery. If done well, this can be very effective. But like all disciplines, some do it better than others. And a few do it exceedingly well.

2006 provided two pretty good extremes between musical integration between the three sections. It is my belief, and I think a look at the score and at what the design staff has constistently repeated was there goal, that The Cavaliers tried to achieve a level of total integration in the musical package. If you follow the music, there are some fairly obvious points where the brass lines are taken directly into the battery. In the opener backfield section, there is a great amount of acoustic interplay between the low brass and the metals in the pit and battery. Wired was all about interlocking parts, visually and musically. And the bass line grooved like none other. It fit the 5/4 structure perfectly with the rim shots in the snares. (PS Wired was adapted from a Marsalis piece so go easy on Saucedo on that one) The ballad is more of a brass piece, but please listen to it again if you can't hear the three distinct, melodic and interlocking lines as they crescendo to the big hit. One of those melodies is repeated by the pit but made more dissonant and ominous at the beginning of the Machine Age. In the giant propeller move, the trumpet line is taken into the pit, and at one point was echoed in the tenor line. I'm sure there is more, but these segments, I think, give a pretty good example of the depth and integration of their musical ensemble.

Whereas if you look at the 2006 Cadets, there were very significant sections of the show where the hornline played and the battery did very little, or vice versa. Heck, there was literally a whole movement of the show dedicated to the percussion section. And the ballad was even more of an acapella brass piece than The Cavaliers. Now why was this ballad not praised for its depth? for its long phrases? It certainly had both as far as chordal structure and the way it developed. Yet, for some reason this movement is overlooked when the arguments rage about how long phrases are better for drum corps. It might be the singer, but personally I applaud The Cadets for their ballad. They saw a chance to add a color to their ensemble and they went for it. Now, say what you will about its result, but it was an adventurous move and I think a lot of people learned from their experience. However, this movement lost its effect because the percussion was dropped for this movement. Last year's ballad was so, so effective because the drums complemented the brass. History has shown us what the effect scores do when integration is taken out of the picture.

So before you try to hack this post apart, please listen to one or two corps from the past couple of years and try to extend your idea of a musical line beyond the brass. I'm not saying there aren't shows out there that don't have non-melodic, disjunct musical lines, but I'm also saying a lot of corps aren't getting credit where credit is due.

Opinions vary greatly on what musical lines in drum corps should consist of. I don't think you can really say one is right and the other is wrong. I will say that the "choppier" approach makes the corps sound more alike.....for sure.

Phantom Regiment 2005 "in my opinion" is a great example of a show with superior musical lines. I feel that the best musical lines occur when the brassline is carrying the majority of the melody and the pit and field perc are also playing (supporting) along.......

Triple Forte

[usmpiano]

I understand your point, however, at least for how I feel, your response does not full answer our criticism.

As a composer/arranger and conductor, and now with performance expereince in both the pit and the brassline of a drum corps I have a decent understanding of corps orchestration techniques.

The problem IMO is not the the phrases are just choppy, it's that they don't flow well from one section of the corps to another.

Your analogy of RoS is understood, however like those masters that tossed melodies and ideas from section to section, they had one luxury that we don't - they have more possible voices, colors, and timbres to play with. It makews more sense to hear this kind of interplay in counterpoint when a melody is tossed from oboes to violins to trumpets to celli, but brass to pit (and possibly battery) makes much less logical sense.

The other issue is that the fragments (can't even call many of them recognizable melodies) don't really relate to one another.

Think about this. When you name a wonderful piece of music by and large, what do you remember? Wonderfully precise stabs of background? Tons of notes rammed by a percussion section? No - you remember a well crafted melody that speaks to the heart, not the intellect. Are there pieces of music that are wonderful without a distinctive melody? Certainly - Short Ride in a Fast Machine and Clapping Music come to mind - both of which have been done on the drum corps field.

Those corps that do the things you suggest do them wonderfully. I have no problem with the interplay of voices Saucedo's compositions. In fact I think he and Jim Casella make a WONDERFUL team. Casella's orchestral style battery writings match Saucedo's music wonderfully. However, the music written for BD in the last 8 or so years (give or take a few years, and they are not the only ones guilty of this) smack of what drives me nuts about this style. I don't want to hear, "hey we can move our fingers realy fast" followed by "DAHT-DAHT-DAHT!!" What kind of musical sense does that make?

[hughesmr]

I understand your point, however, at least for how I feel, your response does not full answer our criticism.

As a composer/arranger and conductor, and now with performance expereince in both the pit and the brassline of a drum corps I have a decent understanding of corps orchestration techniques.

The problem IMO is not the the phrases are just choppy, it's that they don't flow well from one section of the corps to another.

Your analogy of RoS is understood, however like those masters that tossed melodies and ideas from section to section, they had one luxury that we don't - they have more possible voices, colors, and timbres to play with. It makews more sense to hear this kind of interplay in counterpoint when a melody is tossed from oboes to violins to trumpets to celli, but brass to pit (and possibly battery) makes much less logical sense.

The other issue is that the fragments (can't even call many of them recognizable melodies) don't really relate to one another.

(snip)

This post is right on the money, IMO. The issue isn't "does the brass carry the melody", "how much does the brass play", etc.... it's the STRUCTURE of the musical arrangements on a macroscopic level and the development (or lack thereof) of sustained musical ideas that is the issue.

[Lance]

A melody also doesn't have to be catchy or "hummable" or whatever word individuals use to exclude all music that they don't like from the realm of "having a melody."

[usmpiano]

I don't believe I ever said that. However, it DOES have to be structured in such a way that it is part of a logical progression of what came before it and what comes next.

[dciguy1987]

Beautifully written and certainly right on. Question would then be, should a brass judge give a cavies hornline playing fragments and less demand get as strong a number compared to a hornline like Regiment who play longer phrases? They are supposed to evaluate quality (the how) but also demand (the what)...

[caviepit85]

Beautifully written and certainly right on. Question would then be, should a brass judge give a cavies hornline playing fragments and less demand get as strong a number compared to a hornline like Regiment who play longer phrases? They are supposed to evaluate quality (the how) but also demand (the what)...

Question would then be, should a percussion judge give the Regiment drumline playing with less exposure get as strong a number compared to a drumline like The Cavaliers who were more exposed and who play longer phrases? They are supposed to evaluate quality (the how) but also demand (the what)...cause if The Cavaliers hornline is playing fragments then who is covering up the missing parts? I didn't hear any silence so somebody must be playing something...