San Antonio Crossmen

[MiamiSun76]

my sis was in the corps from 79-82.....many, many nights at Boeing. There are wonderful memories from that place & I will always remember the Crossmen in THAT lot....besides, my pop would then take me to Pat's Steaks afterwards!!!!!!!

The few months in 1980 that I lived in Ridley Park and parked the truck in my apartment building lot (before the neighbors complained).....................

Robbie being 1st on the scene the horrible night we lost Jim Ott.........

Standing on the sidelines with Robbie and Dave at West Chester a few weeks later when we lost Bob Jacobs, Sr. right in front of us..................

I think my most vivid memory was seeing the corps go on in Birmingham in 1979 wearing the "disco tears" after the great apology.............

I'm sorry, you can't take that to some band in Texas (and I DO wish the San Antonio Sheriffs well).

[dbc03]

I'm not even sure that this is the issue.

The perception is that YEA didn't give the same treatment to the Crossmen as they do for the Cadets. Whether or not this is accurate or not isn't 100% known, but I don't see Mr. Hopkins disputing this assertion.

I'm happy that Bones lives on, and that they'll shake free from the 10,000lb yoke that is YEA. But I'm still convinced there's alterior motives behind this move.

While I don't really believe it to be the case that the Crossmen constantly got the short end of the deal when it comes to getting "stuff" for the sake of this discussion I'll pretend it's true.

Lets say you are a corps director of a multiple championship drum corps, everything is going pretty darn well for you and your corps, so you decide to try and help save another drum corps that financially isn't doing to hot. You and your organization absorb tons of their debt, including their yearly losses. Which corps is going to get first dibs at things? The corps that you are the director of and operates in the black or the one that you are pouring money into to keep it alive that operates at a loss every year?

YEA saves the Crossmen from extinction and absorbs all the cost of doing so, and people can't do anything but ##### and moan because they didn't do more.

NEWS FLASH - They didn't have to do anything to start with, and they would have gotten a lot less criticism if they hadn't gotten involved and had just let the Crossmen run their course and die out.

It's like giving a beggar on the streets $1000 and then getting #####ed at by people because you drive a sports car

[cowtown]

why is everyone attacking me one this?

Please...It has been made clear several times on this thread that the Crossmen lose money on a yearly basis."

no, it has been said that...in this day and age of enron accounting and not having open access to the books, it's not clear at all, there is nothing to back that up

"there is no evidence to support your claim of YEA 'stealing' from xmen."

I never made that claim, I said 'for all I know'...I never said stealing either...divisions with in the same group don't steal, they shift funds and redirect budgets

"Hop has been in a no win situation for years with them, if he gets involved and brings his best people in, he is accused of micromanaging or trying to take them over and turn them into something else, when he steps back he is accused of letting them fail."

that may be but is a corp not greater than what some may say about you, is he that fragile or have that weak of leadership...no, not at all as this move indicates...so its not really valid

Here is my quote as posted below:

"for all I know, the Cadets and bands could be bleeding the crossmen funds"

and a reply from another:

"I'm not going to dignify the rest of your crap with much of a response, but you are really just pulling what you think the facts are out of absolutely nothing. You have no idea what you are talking about, but you won't let ignorance of the situation stop you, that's for sure."

I did not present anything as fact...'for all I know' is an admitting my ignorance and showing that it is only doubtful speculation (something that I doubt), I’m sorry, I thought the intent of the phrase ‘for all I know’ was more widely understood

''Anyway, the above quoted comment is really stupid. If the Cadets and the bands were bleeding Crossmen funds don't you think YEA would want to keep them around?''

only until there was nothing left and that point could be now - but then again, it was just doubtful speculation, I'm just showing the flaws in that logic

"It is fairly common knowledge that the Cadets bring in a lot more funds every year than the Crossmen for various reasons."

yes it is and they also spend more, again it fails to substantiate your position, no reason why they have to take in more money to have some of their income redirected elsewhere

"Don't let facts get in the way of your pointless ranting though"

I have not presented 'facts'

"Keep on raging against YEA for pouring hundreds of thousands of dollars into a drum corps when they could have just as easily let it die, and for now trying to return that corps to it's individual status in the way they think is best for the corps."

Its an inconstant statement based upon hyperbole and spin, so I won’t address it

"YEA has essentially absorbed the losses of the Crossmen for 11 years and paid off lots of their debt that they had before they joined YEA. What do they get for it? People #####ing and complaining about it every 5 minutes."

YEA failed to make crossmen profitable. Period. Or even sustainable (you claim) for the past 11 years, that is their failure then. To pretend that crossmen were always doomed to lose money and were a mere charity case shows arrogance and a fundamental lack of understanding the nature of business. YEA bought crossmen because they thought it would bring value to YEA, they were unable to achieve that due to their own management practices for crossmen so they are dropping them

While I do respect and appreciate your opinions I do not condone your willfully hostile misrepresentation of my post

edit to add quote boxes, make it more clear

Edited September 22, 2006 by cowtown

[Lancerlady]

cue the music for the twilight zone ala cadets 05 and 06?

since you seem to have such a profetic vision of what is really going on how about you share with us landerlady?

ps - you do realize that Xmen are only with YEA! for this season and next season right?

You're funny...

In time you will see what's going on here....and I'm not in the mood to debate or argue with you but last time I checked I thought I was "allowed" to have an opinion on here.

Not everything people say on here is a conspiracy theorist as some of you like to claim when people don't AGREE with your way of thinking...

[JrzyInVA]

I've had mixed feelings about the announcement. While on one hand, I hope this change will help the Crossmen. I do business in San Antonio, and it's an area that is growing, and fast. I hope that Mr. Chambers and his staff will be able to bring the XMen back to the ranks of finalists.

I worry about the vets. The reality is that many/most were able to drive to the weekend rehearsal camps when they were on the east coast. I wonder if anyone has stats on the ratio of members who drove versus flew to weekend camps in NJ this past season? The vets (and alum) provide the continuity, including the intangibles of what it means to be a member of the Crossmen. I wonder what the retention rate will be.

We may see two eras of the Crossmen, with yesterday's announcement being the dividing point. I hope many of the traditions that make up the Crossmen will follow them to Texas. I hope we don't end up with a Corps that only has its name in common with the pre-2007 Crossmen.

Respectfully,

Edited September 22, 2006 by JrzyInVA

[SaraNYC]

So are we going to have to call them the TXmen now? :P I keed, I keed.

This looks to be a very positive step for the Crossmen, it's going to be good for Texas to have a Division I corps back in the state, it's an incredible talent base to draw from. The RR team is solid and they'll still have YEA's support.

I wonder how the West Chester alums are feeling about this. I suppose it's difficult for some, but it is best to assure for the corps' future than to keep it on the bubble and where it started.

Mark, you know very well how it feels as an alum to have your corps taken away. Granted, the Crossmen still exist, but to the kids from the PA area that marched there, it may as well been taken away.

Hopefully if any members of Xman are unable to continue to participate in the group because of the move and are not able to find a DCI corps, they will consider a DCA corps, with so many in the area.

Edited September 22, 2006 by SaraNYC

[MikeD]

In time you will see what's going on here....and I'm not in the mood to debate or argue with you but last time I checked I thought I was "allowed" to have an opinion on here.

Ah, looks like you missed the latest memo...everyone but you IS allowed to have an opinion...you however, are not. :P

[dbc03]

why is everyone attacking me one this?

Because you are persecuting YEA for trying to save the Crossmen.

no, it has been said that...in this day and age of enron accounting and not having open access to the books, it's not clear at all, there is nothing to back that up

What do they gain by lying about it?

I never made that claim, I said 'for all I know'...I never said stealing either...divisions with in the same group don't steal, they shift funds and redirect budgets

that may be but is a corp not greater than what some may say about you, is he that fragile or have that weak of leadership...no, not at all as this move indicates...so its not really valid

No, he is not that fragile, he made his decision and let people whine that he wasn't giving the Crossmen enough attention instead of making the other decision to get extremely involved and have people whine that he was trying to completely take over the Crossmen.

Here is my quote as posted below:

"for all I know, the Cadets and bands could be bleeding the crossmen funds"

and a reply from another:

I did not present anything as fact...'for all I know' is an admitting my ignorance and showing that it is only doubtful speculation (something that I doubt), I’m sorry, I thought the intent of the phrase ‘for all I know’ was more widely understood

Everything in the post you are quoting before "Anyway, the above..." is talking about everything in your post as a whole, not the individual quoted statement.

Here are some things you stated as fact

If their goal was to really grow drum corp in terms of more corps, then why would they not redirect their efforts on getting the crossmen up to snuff maybe even at the expenses of a few positions from the cadets?

Because it was not their goal

Somewhere along the way, a conscious decision was made to sacrifice one corp at the expensive of the rest of the org

if the sole focus of management were on crossmen the past 11 years instead of all the other things, they might have faired much better…too much going on, something has to give...they made their chocie, years ago

You are stating these things as fact. You have no way of knowing whether it is or not, but you aren't letting that phase you

only until there was nothing left and that point could be now - but then again, it was just doubtful speculation, I'm just showing the flaws in that logic

The simplest answer is most often the correct one. Which is more likely, that the Crossmen were losing money the entire time just like everyone (not just Hop) involved says? Or that there was a huge conspiracy where Hop was secretly taking all of the Crossmen's money to help the Cadets without anyone finding out about it. You'd think he would have acquired a more profitable corps if that was his plan all along

yes it is and they also spend more, again it fails to substantiate your position, no reason why they have to take in more money to have some of their income redirected elsewhere

Not sure what you are talking about here. If you're talking about the Cadets redirecting some of their money to the Crossmen they have done that. If you are talking about the Crossmen redirecting some of their funds to the Cadets they haven't because the Crossmen haven't had income.

I have not presented 'facts'

Nope, you certainly got that right. You've tried to, but they were based on nothing at all.

You also haven't paid any attention to the ones that HAVE been presented in this thread either.

Facts have no place in blatant YEA bashing.

Edit: To be continued in part two... thanks to the limit on quotes :P

Edited September 22, 2006 by dbc03

[xmenjeffb]

Gross mismanagement of the crossmen.

YEA was fully capable of achieving the top levels of success for one of its corp – so they have the ability, just not the desire or wherewithal to dedicate their efforts on the crossmen. Maybe they just could not handle managing 2 corps properly, seems to be the case

Did not notice the cadets lacking funds as the crossmen had the pink tables pulled from them

Maybe I should review a copy of YEA budgets; you got a link to their year end reports and finical statements?

Here’s one, seeing that YEA has been proven incapable of managing the crossmen, why should the cadets get a free pass…I don’t get how they can keep them so separate…if crossmen are in such bad shape, than why are cadets so healthy?

And maybe I was wrong about not supporting crossmen, maybe I should throw all my support behind them and send them a fat check, their success would show how inept their past management really was…but this is so much for them to overcome, they have been put in a huge whole

I will not debate this issue but i will say you are not in the know. Unless you worked with the corps and in the office you really have no idea . I have and i know what YEA has meant to the Crossmen. I know we were 7th in 2001 . I know that did not equal a huge influx of cash in donations.In fact they have been in fianls more than they have been out. So the last couple of seasons have no direct Impact other than the monsy for show appearance is not as much as it was . The Crossmen had drum deals , horns deals, sticks, heads , flags and uniforms thru sponsors provided thru YEA . We have quality trucks and food programs. We also had bus issues but many others do as well. We do not raise the same money as the Cadets in souvies or campaign drives. Yet we had quality equipment , staff and everything available to us that other Div 1 corps had.In many cases we had more.

All i hope is this moves gives them security in all aspects of the activity.Since 1999 there have been 5 directors. 5 tour directors,many staff changes and that needs to cease. As i stated i hope this change of direction is the last one for a while and they can build for the future .Good luck Bones .

I fixed the end quote tag....Mike

Edited September 22, 2006 by MikeD

[Piper]

I think that the Crossmen made a smart move from an orginizational standpoint. Hoppy seems more interested in YEA than he does in Drum Corps, and the more distance between the two the better. I'm happy for a lot of kids in Texas. It's a state with an abundance of talent and deserves a DCI DI corps of its own. They've fed DCI for years with their kids, so it isn't too much to ask. On the other hand, I feel badly for some of the kids in the Crossmen. They didn't leave their corps - their corps left them. Who can blame them if they adopt a "don't trust anybody" attitude. They got burned, and will probably remember it for the rest of their lives. This is going to leave a lot of scares.