1977 Cabs/Bridgemen

[donincardona]

i touched a nerve. very good. but you still have to tell me why the entire drum corps world feels that way except the cabs and a few others? back in the 60's dca was formed because of the cabs winning all the time. lefty meyer said it was time to let others have a chance. so it took the cabs a while to win in dca. as for sour grapes....i have none. but don't EVER tell me they won dca in 1972. sky won that hands down & the cabs should have been in fith. that was politics. but what ever. it's all in the past & dosen't really matter cuase in 100 years noobdy will remember or care.

[VOReason]

And as a Caballero, I KNOW we had to beat all of our competition by at least 10 points, just to have a .1 margin of victory. Believe me....this comes from experience!

So the Cabs won the 1977 DCA by 10.15 points!!! I believe congratulations are in order!

[donincardona]

As a previous poster said, "Opinions are like a**holes.......everyone has one"....

If you never marched or taught the Caballeros, then you have NO idea what you are talking about. Politics have NOTHING to do with what you say. And believe me....I have mached in BOTH of the corps around this major topic....the Sunrisers AND the Caballeros. And as a Caballero, I KNOW we had to beat all of our competition by at least 10 points, just to have a .1 margin of victory. Believe me....this comes from experience!

Hawthorne WON all those years because they WERE good.....Politics had nothing to do with it!!

Go read about the history of DCA, and the Caballeros in DCA and you might get a clue on how hard it was for the Caballeros 'back in the day'.

saying hawthorne had to win by 10 points just to win by a .1 point is a total crock. in all my years that is one corps that was always given the benifit of the doubt. i know jim costello ( rest his soul) told you that but that's not true. they won because of the fans and the relationship they had with the judges. they could execute but their shows didn't have any difficulty. they had excellent drills but the music just didn't measure up. i'm sorry that this is hard to swallow but c'mon. i shouldn't have said the cabs were & are a sham. that was wrong. i know about the politics of the day because i watched wes myers, corky fabrizio, vince bruni, lefty meyer and yes jim costello use it. it's nice to think all things in this life are earned but let's face sometimes it's not. that's not to say the cabs never earned a championship because they did. they won a lot and i respect that corps for it but they still had a lot of political clout. in 1977 sun was the best and that was the way it shook out. there show was better and more progressive than any corps.

[cabalumnidrummer]

Some interesting new comments by donincardona:

"back in the 60's dca was formed because of the cabs winning all the time. lefty meyer said it was time to let others have a chance. so it took the cabs a while to win in dca. as for sour grapes....i have none. but don't EVER tell me they won dca in 1972. sky won that hands down & the cabs should have been in fith. that was politics."

And then:

"i shouldn't have said the cabs were & are a sham. that was wrong. i know about the politics of the day because i watched wes myers, corky fabrizio, vince bruni, lefty meyer and yes jim costello use it. it's nice to think all things in this life are earned but let's face sometimes it's not. that's not to say the cabs never earned a championship because they did. they won a lot and i respect that corps for it but they still had a lot of political clout. in 1977 sun was the best and that was the way it shook out. there show was better and more progressive than any corps."

Where should I begin?

I marched in Hawthorne during their first five years in DCA, 1966 through 1970. I guess what you're is saying Lefty was pretty successful, because apparently he made sure we didn't win a regular-season DCA contest between July 1966 (in Syracuse with no other 'major' contenders there except the Sunrisers) and July 1970. Shame on you! Are you accusing Mr. Mayer of the same kind of politics as you claim Hawthorne later possessed? And exactly how did such a complete turn-around occur in DCA?

We did win the '66 Legion Nationals (a non-DCA show) but were relegated to fifth at the '66 DCA Championship. Even Sun, who hadn't even made Legion Finals beat us. Politics vs. Politics you may say? Perhaps. I don't profess to know so much about the politics as some people do.

I wish we knew before the Legion contest we were a lock to win. Then we wouldn't have practiced all Friday night past midnight, all-day Saturday after prelims again until past midnight, and all-day Sunday, right up until it was time to get dressed for the finals in DC Stadium. If Jim Costello had any political clout, he didn't tell us; he worked us for hours on end to clean drill and music execution. Actually our DCA Finals performance was probably better than the Legion show that year. But -- I guess you're right about DCA's purpose.

In both 1972 and 1977, I believe the DCA could have gone to any one of three corps each of those years. Hawthorne came out on top in '72 after losing a heart-breaker the year before, and after another marathon practice session in Chicago earlier that season at the Legion. Sun won in '77 by the slimmest of margins, because they were judged better that night. Call me naive, but I'd like to believe the better corps has always ultimately won on any given championship night, whether I agreed or not, and whether it was Hawthorne or not. If politics were REALLY at work in the '70's, Hawthorne perhaps would have won their eighth consecutive DCA title that year, instead of losing for the third time in eight consecutive tries.

Sun produced a great corps in the '70's. Hawthorne was at the top of their game. Sky had some outstanding years. The Matadors were a power to contend with. The Yankee Rebels, Les Diplomates and your Crusaders were strong in the early part of the decade, and the Bucs and Hurcs contended throughout those years. Drum corps was exciting, and contest outcomes were often hard to predict -- and sometimes harder to believe and accept. That's no reason to demean any corps. Competition is great, but unfortunately it fosters very strong feelings, often negative.

None of those corps, or any other top DCA contender for that matter, ever was or is 'a sham.' All of these corps have always worked too hard to be categorized that way. Let's stop the name-calling and the insinuations. It serves no purpose. If your statement, "i shouldn't have said the cabs were & are a sham. that was wrong," is a back-door apology, it is accepted.

By the way, I recall we had a really nice relationship and party with the Crusaders after the '66 Legion. And Vince Bruni gave a great tribute to Jim Costello at his testamonial dinner a few years before his death. Among other remarks he made that night, he told Jim, "The road to a championship always meant you had to go through Hawthorne." Because of that, he said the '72 Legion win over the Cabs was one of his proudest moments. I will do my best not to let my memories of your corps and Mr. Bruni be tarnished.

[FPonzo]

saying hawthorne had to win by 10 points just to win by a .1 point is a total crock. in all my years that is one corps that was always given the benifit of the doubt. i know jim costello ( rest his soul) told you that but that's not true. they won because of the fans and the relationship they had with the judges. they could execute but their shows didn't have any difficulty. they had excellent drills but the music just didn't measure up. i'm sorry that this is hard to swallow but c'mon. i shouldn't have said the cabs were & are a sham. that was wrong. i know about the politics of the day because i watched wes myers, corky fabrizio, vince bruni, lefty meyer and yes jim costello use it. it's nice to think all things in this life are earned but let's face sometimes it's not. that's not to say the cabs never earned a championship because they did. they won a lot and i respect that corps for it but they still had a lot of political clout. in 1977 sun was the best and that was the way it shook out. there show was better and more progressive than any corps.

Again, you raise some good points, but listen to what you actually write. If you were around back then, you would know that 'difficulty' or 'progression' didn't have much clout on the sheets...it was about execution. Heck...you just admitted it yourself!!! The Caballeros EXECUTED their show better than anyone else in all those years. Difficulty and progressiveness of the show did not come about until after they dropped the tick system back in the early 80's.

Am I saying that the Sunrisers didn't deserve the win in 77? NO....far from it. I WAS a Sunriser for 7 years in the 80's, and that 77 championship season is what helped my decision in joining the Sunrisers in 1982. I do think that Sun deserved to win that year, and I also think that any one of the top 3 corps could have won. Dont forget, Cabs WON High Horns, High GE and High M&M in 77. Christ.....how often do you see a corps loose 3 out of the 4 captions, and still WIN DCA's? Progression and difficulty had nothing to do with their show.....they out executed the Caballeros that particular night. And if politics had anything to do with it, the Caballeros WOULD have won.....according to your many previous posts!!! I guess you can say that the Sunrisers had some politics working of their own that night....because THEY won, and not the Cabs!

And speaking of sour grapes....it sure sounds like you still have some. Maybe if you stopped eating them with your "haterade", you wouldn't have these delusions and halucinations any longer!!!

[donincardona]

Again, you raise some good points, but listen to what you actually write. If you were around back then, you would know that 'difficulty' or 'progression' didn't have much clout on the sheets...it was about execution. Heck...you just admitted it yourself!!! The Caballeros EXECUTED their show better than anyone else in all those years. Difficulty and progressiveness of the show did not come about until after they dropped the tick system back in the early 80's.

Am I saying that the Sunrisers didn't deserve the win in 77? NO....far from it. I WAS a Sunriser for 7 years in the 80's, and that 77 championship season is what helped my decision in joining the Sunrisers in 1982. I do think that Sun deserved to win that year, and I also think that any one of the top 3 corps could have won. Dont forget, Cabs WON High Horns, High GE and High M&M in 77. Christ.....how often do you see a corps loose 3 out of the 4 captions, and still WIN DCA's? Progression and difficulty had nothing to do with their show.....they out executed the Caballeros that particular night. And if politics had anything to do with it, the Caballeros WOULD have won.....according to your many previous posts!!! I guess you can say that the Sunrisers had some politics working of their own that night....because THEY won, and not the Cabs!

And speaking of sour grapes....it sure sounds like you still have some. Maybe if you stopped eating them with your "haterade", you wouldn't have these delusions and halucinations any longer!!!

i digress. my post have been misunderstood. i hate no corps. my corps was very close to hawthorne. we had a great friendship. we stayed at the same hotel with em in chicago in 1972. we had a great party afterwords. hawthorne did indeed execute. i have my opinions and all of you have yours. i loved drumcorps and the competion. it was great win or lose. i wish i could go back to those times but................ i hold all those shows with great delight in my memories. as i have found in these post's that if you speak your mind you #### a lot of people off. this was not my intent. i just thought it was a way to start a spitited dicussion. i guess i was wrong. there is no objectiveness here. i'm sorry if i heart anyones feelings.........peace be with you all

[cabalumnidrummer]

Don,

Speaking your mind is fine, but attacking the integrity and reputation of a corps is a different story. We all love to boast about our own corps, but I believe it should never include putting down our competitors -- and often friends -- in the drum corps activity. Maybe that was not your intent, but it certainly came across that way. Thank you for realizing you hurt feelings and were perhaps misunderstood.

Peace to you, my friend. Have a great summer.

[donincardona]

Don,

Speaking your mind is fine, but attacking the integrity and reputation of a corps is a different story. We all love to boast about our own corps, but I believe it should never include putting down our competitors -- and often friends -- in the drum corps activity. Maybe that was not your intent, but it certainly came across that way. Thank you for realizing you hurt feelings and were perhaps misunderstood.

Peace to you, my friend. Have a great summer.

thanks my friend and i hope you all have a great summer.

[cabalumsw]

i digress. my post have been misunderstood. i hate no corps. my corps was very close to hawthorne. we had a great friendship. we stayed at the same hotel with em in chicago in 1972. we had a great party afterwords. hawthorne did indeed execute. i have my opinions and all of you have yours. i loved drumcorps and the competion. it was great win or lose. i wish i could go back to those times but................ i hold all those shows with great delight in my memories. as i have found in these post's that if you speak your mind you #### a lot of people off. this was not my intent. i just thought it was a way to start a spitited dicussion. i guess i was wrong. there is no objectiveness here. i'm sorry if i heart anyones feelings.........peace be with you all

Frank and John:

Sounds like sour grapes, vintage 1972, to me! If anything it was a tossup between us and Skyliners but for us to be in fifth place at 72 DCA Finals? I don't think so. We were like a marching machine at Prelims and Finals that year. It was the Crusaders just narrowly beating us at American Legion Nationals that turned it around for us. As I have mentioned before, we worked our tails off from the end of July of 72 and we steadily rose in the standings. We peaked at the right time because we had a huge turnover from 1971 and it was this corps that was the basis for the great seasons of 1973-1977.

I do agree that we were pretty friendly with Rochester though and I do not want to get into a pissing contest over something that happened 35 years ago. It's in the books and it is done! Peace to all! Amen!

1972 DCA Championships

September 3 - Roosevelt Stadium - Jersey City, New Jersey

1 Hawthorne Caballeros 90.60

2 New York Skyliners (1.0 Pen.) 89.75

3 Reading Buccaneers 88.65

4 Tie - Rochester Crusaders 88.20

4 Tie - Connecticut Hurricanes 88.20

6 Les Diplomates 82.35

7 Yankee Rebels 80.45

8 Long Island Sunrisers 76.00

9 Hamburg Kingsmen 74.30

10 Pittsburgh Rockets 73.90

11 Burlington Commanders 63.15

12 Rhode Island Matadors 58.95

[VOReason]

thanks my friend and i hope you all have a great summer.

Such an abrupt mea culpa!! Someone must have slipped a qualude into that "haterade". Or maybe you received a threatening PM....it's happened before..peace be with you Edited May 31, 2007 by VOReason